Tokyo Mew Mew...

[Zero Angel]

ok. i have been following up quite a bit on this series since i first saw a few episodes at JACON a couple years back.

hey, i am big into magical girl shows, call is my guilty pleasure.

i have to say though, after watching that little preview on the FoxBox website, i had to purge my stomach. honestly, not since Sailor Moon has a Bishojo-Senshi show been treated to wantonly.

i am happy that the show is finally making it across the seas but at what cost?

the same one that One Peice will probably have to suffer.

here is the point of my rantage...

Why is it that 4Kids and other affliated groups (Saban) have to simply release something that it isn't?

i adored the original names and style of Tokyo Mew Mew. now i will have to sit back and wait for a company like ADV or FuniMation to take the reigns and do an uncut box for the series. hopefully i wont have to wait that long and something akin to the Card Captor Sakura dvd release will happen.

does anyone know if they are going to do another release of the series as Tokyo Mew Mew and not Mew Mew Power ::shudder at the name:: ?

[Elven Moon]

Check out www.mewmewpower.tv (http://www.mewmewpower.tv) :) Someone has a campaign going about an uncut Mew Mew.

To answer your question, I think it's to make it more profitable somehow, and to hide the fact that it comes from Japan - why, I really don't know. Or at least it seems that way.

[lostrune]

i adored the original names and style of Tokyo Mew Mew. now i will have to sit back and wait for a company like ADV or FuniMation to take the reigns and do an uncut box for the series.

It's not up to them - it's still up to 4Kids to sublicense it to them.

Eh, Tokyo Mew Mew is a poor imitation of the Sailor Moon-ish genre, just unabashedly more risque (lingerie and laces) yet made the girls even younger. Dunno what the pervert Japanese animators were thinking (oh wait, I do). The dub couldn't make it much worse. :p

[Zero Angel]

It's not up to them - it's still up to 4Kids to sublicense it to them.

Eh, Tokyo Mew Mew is a poor imitation of the Sailor Moon-ish genre, just unabashedly more risque (lingerie and laces) yet made the girls even younger. Dunno what the pervert Japanese animators were thinking (oh wait, I do). The dub couldn't make it much worse. :p
you know...im not sure if your benig sarcastic or not.

if you are...ha ha ha...

if you arent, well...i have to question your ideas of exactly what direction you would like to see anime head in here.

regardless of what the material is, IMHO, all shows should receive a fair amount of respect when being brought over here.

[Bartman3010]

Well, kids arent very interested in where the show comes from.

Of course, you'd think they'd think about what happens when a kid grows older and learns the origin of the show.

I must say, Sonic X is an okay job. I'm pretty sure whats cut is just for time. Even though the show isnt that good anyway (Needs more Sonic)

[Karl Olson]

Issue 1: Tokyo Mew Mew's handling in the US.

I'm appalled with it so far, both as fan of anime, and as analyst of the anime business. Not only did they make atleast 13 unnecessary changes, (http://forums.toonzone.net/showpost.php?p=1387816&postcount=98) but they made changes that from an anime business standpoint look like suicide. Dealing in heavily altered magical girl anime has always been a sure fire to sink your company.

As I've said before, DiC went from one of the most important distributors of children's animation in America, to the least important, pretty much because of how badly Sailor Moon bombed in America (note that the uncut kept the property profitable, along with the Canadian success of the show.) Nelvana was well on it's way to becoming a major player in the children's animation market in the US, until Cardcaptors bombed so catastrophically, the merchandise was being for 90 percent or more off of list price at liquidation stores and Kmarts that were being shut down (again, the uncut version kept the show profitable, kind of. Nelvana posted some big losses in 2001-2002 IIRC.)

Therefore, what 4kids is doing is absolutely insane from a business standpoint. Light localization can do a lot for a show (see: FLCL.) Even heavy localization can work if the right team is handling it (see: Duel Masters.) But localizing a magical girl series in the US is always, always stupid, atleast given the evidence to date. 4kids won't likely break the mahou shoujo curse, and it might cost them their company's stature, though maybe if they are quick with the uncuts, it'll balance out. Their saving grace is that they've got two hallmark properties under their belt, which means this could take catastrophically, and they won't lose the ground they've got.

Issue 2: Fan service in Tokyo Mew Mew
The original manga was written by two Japanese women. The frilly style outfit and maid outfits are simply reflections of some of the underground style at the time, with a dash of the skimpiness that been a staple in mahou shoujo since Mahoutsukai Sally, the first magical girl show. Does it have a chunk of fans that are loliconning ol' otaku? Yeah, and Al Kahn, CEO of 4kids, is probably in that group. Name me a show with a young female character than doesn't have someone doing some gross lolicon doujin art. However, the main target audience for the show in Japan is elementary school girls, and it does exceptionally well with them.

and I'm spent.

[ohmrbill]

Dunno what the pervert Japanese animators were thinking (oh wait, I do).
The original author and artist of the manga were women, as well as the character designer.

[Rabi~en~Rose]

Karls right it is made by girls :) anyway I have only seen bits and pieces of the anime but have read the manga and am really wondering what 4Kids is going to do with all the lovey dovey stuff :confused: lots of tender hugs and loving kisses and poor Ichigo gets kissed on by like 3 or 4 people :eek: if YYH can't get away with making out jokes on Teenami then..... :(

[Karl Olson]

Karls right it is made by girls :)

I got live up to being the honorary TZ fan girl, right? ;)

anyway I have only seen bits and pieces of the anime but have read the manga and am really wondering what 4Kids is going to do with all the lovey dovey stuff :confused: lots of tender hugs and loving kisses and poor Ichigo gets kissed on by like 3 or 4 people :eek: if YYH can't get away with making out jokes on Teenami then..... :(

Yeah, their is definetely some romance and even some innuendo in the show, and it's gives the show a litte emotion beyond "omg! monster! fight it!" so I'd hate to see it nixed in the US version. That emotion also helps set it apart at least a little from other sentai-style mahou shoujo series. However, 4kids seems poised to replace that with Educational/Informational friend noise that is associated with shows that make no money and that are very boring.

[Luna]

As of now,I've only read the TMM manga(English version)...I think it's cute,though not quite as good as the Sailor Moon or Wedding Peach manga were....
I know I'm going to end up watching the dub for at least an episode,just out of curiosity(I liked the theme song on the FoxBox preview,and the animation looks good)....As for name changes,I'd have preferred keeping the original character/weapon names,but the girl's names aren't too bad(weapons are another matter,though at least they kept "Strawberry Bell")....come to think of it,my sister's kitten's name is Zoe,and Ichigo(the cat-girl)'s English name is Zoe...
Though it may be unlikely,I'm still hoping for an eventual subbed DVD release...

[Zero Angel]

Issue 1: Tokyo Mew Mew's handling in the US.

I'm appalled with it so far, both as fan of anime, and as analyst of the anime business. Not only did they make atleast 13 unnecessary changes, (http://forums.toonzone.net/showpost.php?p=1387816&postcount=98) but they made changes that from an anime business standpoint look like suicide. Dealing in heavily altered magical girl anime has always been a sure fire to sink your company.

As I've said before, DiC went from one of the most important distributors of children's animation in America, to the least important, pretty much because of how badly Sailor Moon bombed in America (note that the uncut kept the property profitable, along with the Canadian success of the show.) Nelvana was well on it's way to becoming a major player in the children's animation market in the US, until Cardcaptors bombed so catastrophically, the merchandise was being for 90 percent or more off of list price at liquidation stores and Kmarts that were being shut down (again, the uncut version kept the show profitable, kind of. Nelvana posted some big losses in 2001-2002 IIRC.)

Therefore, what 4kids is doing is absolutely insane from a business standpoint. Light localization can do a lot for a show (see: FLCL.) Even heavy localization can work if the right team is handling it (see: Duel Masters.) But localizing a magical girl series in the US is always, always stupid, atleast given the evidence to date. 4kids won't likely break the mahou shoujo curse, and it might cost them their company's stature, though maybe if they are quick with the uncuts, it'll balance out. Their saving grace is that they've got two hallmark properties under their belt, which means this could take catastrophically, and they won't lose the ground they've got.

Issue 2: Fan service in Tokyo Mew Mew
The original manga was written by two Japanese women. The frilly style outfit and maid outfits are simply reflections of some of the underground style at the time, with a dash of the skimpiness that been a staple in mahou shoujo since Mahoutsukai Sally, the first magical girl show. Does it have a chunk of fans that are loliconning ol' otaku? Yeah, and Al Kahn, CEO of 4kids, is probably in that group. Name me a show with a young female character than doesn't have someone doing some gross lolicon doujin art. However, the main target audience for the show in Japan is elementary school girls, and it does exceptionally well with them.

and I'm spent.
ahh...it is good that someone, even if they dont necessarily like the show, knows what i was trying to go for in this topic, and at the very least supported some of what i was trying to argue to lostrune.

just as a side note, does anyone know if there have been talks of doing an uncut version of this show? perhaps giving it to Genon (like Cardcaptor Sakura) or ADV (like Sailor Moon).

[Karl Olson]

ahh...it is good that someone, even if they dont necessarily like the show, knows what i was trying to go for in this topic, and at the very least supported some of what i was trying to argue to lostrune.

Yeah, I'm not a particular fan of the show (heck, it even gave me some weird nightmare about being Mew Ichigo,) but I'm not not the kind of preson to sit by idly and let some one rail against show with out the facts or defile for broadcast a show under the misguided goal of higher profitability. Thank you for recognizing that.

Granted, maybe it's just my tendency to be an opinionated, bombast, geeky analyst as of late rearing it's ugly head... :sweat: :anime:

just as a side note, does anyone know if there have been talks of doing an uncut version of this show? perhaps giving it to Genon (like Cardcaptor Sakura) or ADV (like Sailor Moon).

I'd guess that Funimation is probably already pestering 4kids for uncut rights. If not, I know Lance from Funi reads these boards, so Lance, get Funi to pester 4kids for uncut rights. You know the fans want it. Granted, I could careless ultimately who gets the uncut rights, as long as someone gets those rights. 4kids needs to get that underway if they want to ensure that the property will be profitable.

[Behonkiss]

I must say, Sonic X is an okay job. I'm pretty sure whats cut is just for time. Even though the show isnt that good anyway (Needs more Sonic)Not the music, though. Instead of keeping or doing something similar to the excellent and varied Japanese track, the dub has forgettable stuff and that stupid "Doo doo dododo DOO doooooo" repeated every minute.

[lostrune]

Dunno what the pervert Japanese animators were thinking (oh wait, I do).
The original author and artist of the manga were women, as well as the character designer.
Thanks for adding them, because that still doesn't exactly change my assertion. :p

Many Japanese animators/mangaka are self-admitted "perverts" (ex: at least one of the CLAMP girls, if not all of them). :cool:
So, I dunno why fans have a hard time accepting that their "idols" (Japanese animators) don't exactly have "pure" motives, children's show regardless. :p

It's like Ralph Bakshi or John Kricfalusi making a kiddie show (heck, the original Ren and Stimpy supposedly was). If their names had been attached to Tokyo Mew Mew (with everything else kept the same), people would be saying what I'm saying. :D


As for name changes,I'd have preferred keeping the original character/weapon names,but the girl's names aren't too bad(weapons are another matter,though at least they kept "Strawberry Bell")....

Unnecessary some of the name changes are, the originals aren't exactly much sensible neither (again, ala "Star Gentle Uterus"). "English=cool" is a bishoujo staple. So, it's a wash - both stoooooopid! :p


ahh...it is good that someone, even if they dont necessarily like the show, knows what i was trying to go for in this topic, and at the very least supported some of what i was trying to argue to lostrune.

Hey, I understood where you were going. And I "liked" the show enough to watch it (and will the dub). I just try not to see it on rose-colored glasses. :)

(The other of Karl's argument -economic viability- is another matter.)

[Karl Olson]

Thanks for adding them, because that still doesn't exactly change my assertion. :p

Many Japanese animators/mangaka are self-admitted "perverts" (ex: at least one of the CLAMP girls, if not all of them). :cool:
So, I dunno why fans have a hard time accepting that their "idols" (Japanese animators) don't exactly have "pure" motives, children's show regardless. :p

It's like Ralph Bakshi or John Kricfalusi making a kiddie show (heck, the original Ren and Stimpy supposedly was). If their names had been attached to Tokyo Mew Mew (with everything else kept the same), people would be saying what I'm saying. :D

Yeah, but we don't have any of the background info on TMM creators or authors. Mahou Shoujo has had sexual overtones from day 1, so it might just be a genre thing. It's within the realm of possibility.

Unnecessary some of the name changes are, the originals aren't exactly much sensible neither (again, ala "Star Gentle Uterus"). "English=cool" is a bishoujo staple. So, it's a wash - both stoooooopid! :p

But atleast one is stoopid campy, as opposed to plain stoopid.

(The other of Karl's argument -economic viability- is another matter.)

Yeah. People prefer their shows mahou shoujo stupid campy, not americanized E/I TVY7FV BS&P strangehold stupid.

Granted, what I'm waiting to see, is how the episodes are really cut. Just how much footage will be lost in the attempt to "tighten the flow."

[Zero Angel]

again Karl has already said most of what i would have added to this topic.

i have to press, however, the concept that certain things just shouldnt be messed with. i know how silly some of the attacks sound, even in the japanese version but when Stars finally comes out over here, you better believe that i want to hear Star Healing Uterus come out of Sailor Star Healer when she preforms her attack.

Karl has already touched on the cutting and americanization of things like this in his comment so i think i will leave it at that.

[lostrune]

Yeah, but we don't have any of the background info on TMM creators or authors. Mahou Shoujo has had sexual overtones from day 1, so it might just be a genre thing. It's within the realm of possibility.
True. Though it may also be possible that the "sexual overtones" genre thing was started by "perverts," so anybody continuing the tradition is automatically passing on the same intention. :D



But atleast one is stoopid campy, as opposed to plain stoopid.
Then it's for viewers to decide which is which... or which is worse for that matter (e.g. stooopid and campy?!). :p



Yeah. People prefer their shows mahou shoujo stupid campy, not americanized E/I TVY7FV BS&P strangehold stupid.
Would you watch The Winx Club? ;)



i have to press, however, the concept that certain things just shouldnt be messed with. i know how silly some of the attacks sound, even in the japanese version but when Stars finally comes out over here, you better believe that i want to hear Star Healing Uterus come out of Sailor Star Healer when she preforms her attack.

Even if it'd cause derision among true English speakers? ;)

Anyways, I guess so long as people don't mind the stooopid Japanese phrases Hollywood uses just to sound cool too. (I won't even mention the prints on skateboard posers shirts.) :D

[Karl Olson]

True. Though it may also be possible that the "sexual overtones" genre thing was started by "perverts," so anybody continuing the tradition is automatically passing on the same intention. :D

Well, unfortunately I don't the creator info behind mahoutsukai sally off the top of my head, and after 5 years of neglect, it'd seem that mahoushoujo.net shut down, so I can't look it up easily. However, I do recall that the show was inspired in large part by Bewitched, which certainly wasn't without innuendo, so that right there might be the root of the whole tradition of innuendo in mahou shoujo. Blame American Sitcoms ;)

Then it's for viewers to decide which is which... or which is worse for that matter (e.g. stooopid and campy?!). :p

So far, viewers have repeatedly decided in America that stupid campy is better. So were back to business.

Would you watch The Winx Club? ;)

No, and if I remember the ratings right, nor would many other people. That kind of show always gets trounced by the cartoon that's just got something interesting to draw the viewer in, whether that some card battling kid posessed by a spirit, or super powered aliens who never use their full power, or sponge that lives in pinapple that lives under the sea.

Again, business says, just make it fun/compelling/etc. Not edutaintional.

Even if it'd cause derision among true English speakers? ;)

There is also difference in the level social unacceptance between an attack with the word "uterus" is the name, and attack names that are only hokey at worst. Besides, it's not like they are getting better names in English. The only name change that'd be sensable from a "boy that sounds dumb in English" standpoint, is Lettuce. That's a bad name for anyone in English, and I've always, always thought that. But out side of that, it's gratuitous, and most definetely damaging to property's viability. Besides, Zakuro Crosswhip is much more badass than Purple Dagger. That's a case of going from cool to bland and stoopid. Very bland and very, very stooooooopid. I don't even why they kept the name Strawberry Bell. It was a play off the girl's name (Ichigo = Strawberry.) It was a pun. That's gone entirely, so it's almost weird to keep that one thing. Call it liberty bell or something that's makes a similar pun.

Oh wait, 4kids doesn't have the sense to that.

Anyways, I guess so long as people don't mind the stooopid Japanese phrases Hollywood uses just to sound cool too. (I won't even mention the prints on skateboard posers shirts.) :D

Yeah, plenty of dumb kids with random kanji on their shirts that could have gem's as sweet "I hate myself and I want to die on it." I hope the Japanese are giggling as much about that as we do about Engrish. ;)

[Gary L Thompson]

I'd guess that Funimation is probably already pestering 4kids for uncut rights. If not, I know Lance from Funi reads these boards, so Lance, get Funi to pester 4kids for uncut rights. You know the fans want it. Granted, I could careless ultimately who gets the uncut rights, as long as someone gets those rights. 4kids needs to get that underway if they want to ensure that the property will be profitable.Hmmm....didn't 4Kids announce recently that it is releasing DVDs with the subbed original on a couple of its shows? If that 4Kids is moving that way on all of its future shows, perhaps that will be the case with TMM.

By the way, I can name several reasons why a faithful "Tokyo Mew Mew" would have worked to 4Kids' great benefit if their execs hadn't been so myopically tied to "localizing" for all animes regardless of whether it made sense for a particular show:

1) The past history of magical girl/superhero genere shows in the U.S. argues against it.

Issue 1: Tokyo Mew Mew's handling in the US.

I'm appalled with it so far, both as fan of anime, and as analyst of the anime business. Not only did they make atleast 13 unnecessary changes, (http://forums.toonzone.net/showpost.php?p=1387816&postcount=98) but they made changes that from an anime business standpoint look like suicide. Dealing in heavily altered magical girl anime has always been a sure fire to sink your company.

As I've said before, DiC went from one of the most important distributors of children's animation in America, to the least important, pretty much because of how badly Sailor Moon bombed in America (note that the uncut kept the property profitable, along with the Canadian success of the show.) Nelvana was well on it's way to becoming a major player in the children's animation market in the US, until Cardcaptors bombed so catastrophically, the merchandise was being for 90 percent or more off of list price at liquidation stores and Kmarts that were being shut down (again, the uncut version kept the show profitable, kind of. Nelvana posted some big losses in 2001-2002 IIRC.)

Therefore, what 4kids is doing is absolutely insane from a business standpoint. Light localization can do a lot for a show (see: FLCL.) Even heavy localization can work if the right team is handling it (see: Duel Masters.) But localizing a magical girl series in the US is always, always stupid, atleast given the evidence to date. 4kids won't likely break the mahou shoujo curse, and it might cost them their company's stature, though maybe if they are quick with the uncuts, it'll balance out. Their saving grace is that they've got two hallmark properties under their belt, which means this could take catastrophically, and they won't lose the ground they've got.
I can't really improve upon that, aside from observing that over the long run SM was a bit more successful than Cardcaptors, and it's probably not coincidental that it was a bit more faithful to the original than CC. And that this could be a make-or-break year for Fox Box, not a time that they can really afford to catastrophically fumble a potential hot property.

2. Tokyo Mew Mew has already been established as a property in the U.S. for some time.

Well, kids arent very interested in where the show comes from.

Of course, you'd think they'd think about what happens when a kid grows older and learns the origin of the show.

I must say, Sonic X is an okay job. I'm pretty sure whats cut is just for time. Even though the show isnt that good anyway (Needs more Sonic)Well, Sonic X is actually set in the U.S. (obviously there's no White House or President in Japan).

Getting back to my subpoint, many kids, essentially the main demographic 4Kids is aiming at, young girls, are well aware the show isn't "Mew Mew Power". That's because a great many of them have been heading to Borders and Barnes & Noble to pick up volumes of the "Tokyo Mew Mew" manga.

This may come as a surprise, but 4Kids isn't primarily interested in winning the ratings race at Fox Box. The real revenue of prime interest to 4Kids is merchandizing bonanza that it is counting on from the Fox Box shows. And Disney established long ago that when you merchandize a media property, every segment of the market: movies, TV shows, comics, play charts, books, theme parks, clothing, toys, etc. should all mutually reinforce each other. While 4Kids obviously doesn't directly benefit from Toykopop's comic paperbacks, and Toyokpop won't directly benefit from the TV show, it's obviously to the benefit of both not to undercut each other. To have confusion from two competing versions would not help merchandising possibilities one iota. The sane course for 4Kids would have been to instruct the dubbers to basically follow the Tokyopop comic.

3. Unlike Mew Mew Power, Tokyo Mew Mew could have been the ideal solution to Fox Box's problems with the 8 a.m. time period.

Under 4Kids' contract with Fox, Fox Box is committed to providing one "educational" half hour on its schedule. So far, shows like "Back to the Future" and "Cubix" have been served up as sacrificial lambs to take on WB's action-packed lineup.

If 4Kids had opted to leave in all the Japanese cultural elements of "Tokyo Mew Mew", and maybe added a version of "Sailor Says" that would actually give viewers cultural trivia on Tokyo and Japan, it's very possible they would have been able to apply the show to the educational requirement. Not only would TMM had more action than previous shows to give KWB a run for its money, but ABC's abandonment of the 8 a.m. time slot this coming fall would have delivered its female audience for that time period straight into Fox Box's lap.

4. 4Kids has publically said that it hopes to broaden its audience to older viewers.

That would make sense over the long term, both in terms of more video sales for 4Kids, and of programming on CN for time periods like Toonami and Adult Swim, perhaps even for other competitors like Animidnight, Anime Unleashed, or Asia Street.

However, needless changes with shows like "Tokyo Mew Mew", not even having anything to do with broadcast standards, can only damage 4Kids' brand for the long term with older anime-loving viewers.

[Karl Olson]

Hmmm....didn't 4Kids announce recently that it is releasing DVDs with the subbed original on a couple of its shows? If that 4Kids is moving that way on all of its future shows, perhaps that will be the case with TMM.

Yes, uncuts of Shaman King and Yu-Gi-Oh are going to be released through funimation with an MSRP of $20.

By the way, I can name several reasons why a faithful "Tokyo Mew Mew" would have worked to 4Kids' great benefit if their execs hadn't been so myopically tied to "localizing" for all animes regardless of whether it made sense for a particular show:

1) The past history of magical girl/superhero genere shows in the U.S. argues against it.

I can't really improve upon that, aside from observing that over the long run SM was a bit more successful than Cardcaptors, and it's probably not coincidental that it was a bit more faithful to the original than CC. And that this could be a make-or-break year for Fox Box, not a time that they can really afford to catastrophically fumble a potential hot property.

But they are already on the path to destruction. Not much that can be done now, other than suggest to them they release uncut discs sooner, rather than later.

2. Tokyo Mew Mew has already been established as a property in the U.S. for some time.

Well, Sonic X is actually set in the U.S. (obviously there's no White House or President in Japan).

Getting back to my subpoint, many kids, essentially the main demographic 4Kids is aiming at, young girls, are well aware the show isn't "Mew Mew Power". That's because a great many of them have been heading to Borders and Barnes & Noble to pick up volumes of the "Tokyo Mew Mew" manga.

This may come as a surprise, but 4Kids isn't primarily interested in winning the ratings race at Fox Box. The real revenue of prime interest to 4Kids is merchandizing bonanza that it is counting on from the Fox Box shows. And Disney established long ago that when you merchandize a media property, every segment of the market: movies, TV shows, comics, play charts, books, theme parks, clothing, toys, etc. should all mutually reinforce each other. While 4Kids obviously doesn't directly benefit from Toykopop's comic paperbacks, and Toyokpop won't directly benefit from the TV show, it's obviously to the benefit of both not to undercut each other. To have confusion from two competing versions would not help merchandising possibilities one iota. The sane course for 4Kids would have been to instruct the dubbers to basically follow the Tokyopop comic.

But of course. And the reality is, is that manga sales on TMM has been largely to the target demo 4kids is after. The kids will know the show has been heavily altered and dumbed down, and they'll refuse to watch. But, hey with some of the comments the CEO of 4kids has made in the past, I question his sanity.

3. Unlike Mew Mew Power, Tokyo Mew Mew could have been the ideal solution to Fox Box's problems with the 8 a.m. time period.

Under 4Kids' contract with Fox, Fox Box is committed to providing one "educational" half hour on its schedule. So far, shows like "Back to the Future" and "Cubix" have been served up as sacrificial lambs to take on WB's action-packed lineup.

If 4Kids had opted to leave in all the Japanese cultural elements of "Tokyo Mew Mew", and maybe added a version of "Sailor Says" that would actually give viewers cultural trivia on Tokyo and Japan, it's very possible they would have been able to apply the show to the educational requirement. Not only would TMM had more action than previous shows to give KWB a run for its money, but ABC's abandonment of the 8 a.m. time slot this coming fall would have delivered its female audience for that time period straight into Fox Box's lap.

Oh, it definetely could have been a silver bullet for a lot of issues the FoxBox has been having. But that's not the case now. Instead, it'll be E/I by adding the same tired shtick about "friendship," "love" and "insert tacked moral that kids won't buy for a second here." So it might give them an E/I show, but in the wrong way, and it'll cost them, because no 6-11 year old girl will put up with that drivel.

4. 4Kids has publically said that it hopes to broaden its audience to older viewers.

That would make sense over the long term, both in terms of more video sales for 4Kids, and of programming on CN for time periods like Toonami and Adult Swim, perhaps even for other competitors like Animidnight, Anime Unleashed, or Asia Street.

However, needless changes with shows like "Tokyo Mew Mew", not even having anything to do with broadcast standards, can only damage 4Kids' brand for the long term with older anime-loving viewers.

Virtually every otaku, young and old, hates 4kids. Virtually all parents of kids hooked on 4kids properties, hate 4kids. They've got much, much more stigma to over come than Funimation ever had to deal with. Trashing a magical girl show because you're to disconnected from the real world because you believe that you "know what kids want" is not the way to produce some goodwill with any of those people. But try telling 4kids that.

[Sketch]

Well I'm not sure what to think of this show yet. It looks entertaining enough... but it's obvious it's going to be dumbed down.

The name changes don't bother me so much but I'm sure plot changes will be prevelant and that's the biggest problem. Though I wonder why they couldn't keep Zoe as Ichigo. The rest of the names I could see them drop but they almost always keep the main character's name intact. But I guess when it has no real relavence they don't "have to".

Shaman King didn't have too many name changes and I wonder about One Piece but it looks like 4kids is going the Sailor Moon route here and that's not a good thing.

Still... would uncut DVD's sell as well as these fans expect them to? Maybe they should compare that to the recent releases of Pretear and Wedding Peach by ADV... though that being said TMM looks a lot more entertaining than either of those.

[Tommy Lawson]

Originally Posted by lostrune
Would you watch The Winx Club? ;)


No, and if I remember the ratings right, nor would many other people. That kind of show always gets trounced by the cartoon that's just got something interesting to draw the viewer in, whether that some card battling kid posessed by a spirit, or super powered aliens who never use their full power, or sponge that lives in pinapple that lives under the sea.

Again, business says, just make it fun/compelling/etc. Not edutaintional.Since I post the Universal Ratings Report for the Kids 6-11 demographic, I have a good idea of how companies try to interpret those numbers. For the Winx Club, from 4Kids' point of view, they see it as doing great, since it is drawing in viewers at its 10:30 am time slot on a regular basis, and isn't the lowest rated show airing on the block. At times, it is the highest rated show on the Fox Box. Of course, the counterargument is that it's the summer season, when there is a drought of new programming, and that the general Fox Box numbers themselves don't go above 2.0 in ratings, and still don't compare well to the general ratings at other networks.

If 4Kids had opted to leave in all the Japanese cultural elements of "Tokyo Mew Mew", and maybe added a version of "Sailor Says" that would actually give viewers cultural trivia on Tokyo and Japan, it's very possible they would have been able to apply the show to the educational requirement. Not only would TMM had more action than previous shows to give KWB a run for its money, but ABC's abandonment of the 8 a.m. time slot this coming fall would have delivered its female audience for that time period straight into Fox Box's lap.The problem with the 8 am time slot, is that, well, it's the 8 am time slot. The first time slot on Saturday morning is never the best one to get the most ratings. And don't forget that it's actually 7:00 am for the Central and Pacific time zones for regular network programming, which makes it even worse.

Disney established long ago that when you merchandize a media property, every segment of the market: movies, TV shows, comics, play charts, books, theme parks, clothing, toys, etc. should all mutually reinforce each other.

But localizing a magical girl series in the US is always, always stupid, atleast given the evidence to date. 4kids won't likely break the mahou shoujo curse, and it might cost them their company's stature, though maybe if they are quick with the uncuts, it'll balance out.Can't do a magical girl series right by adapting a Japanese anime? I'm sure a lot of you would suggest creating your own series influenced by Japanese anime and manga . Then, sell a zillion copies of comics in Europe, and then create an animated TV show without having to deal with any Japanese company at all. The next billion-dollar property Disney is hoping was created by Disney Italy, W.I.T.C.H. (http://www.clubwitch.com/) and its animated TV show premieres in early 2005.

I'm sure that if Mew Mew Power fails to become a hit for 4Kids, then Disney will try their strategy at making a magical girl TV show work here, and having control over what they put out from the start should help them, and I think they have a better chance at making it work. I'll be honest, I don't know much about Tokyo Mew Mew, but I do know that 4Kids likely decided to adapt it because they see competition from companies like Disney. A big problem I see with radical changes to Japanese anime series is that it tends to make the show difficult to understand fully, and if you can't understand it, then why watch it? They might try to throw in some dialogue here and there for missing scenes and/or episodes, but then you start to wonder why it isn't there in the dub version (even though it was there in the original version).

[Karl Olson]

Since I post the Universal Ratings Report for the Kids 6-11 demographic, I have a good idea of how companies try to interpret those numbers. For the Winx Club, from 4Kids' point of view, they see it as doing great, since it is drawing in viewers at its 10:30 am time slot on a regular basis, and isn't the lowest rated show airing on the block. At times, it is the highest rated show on the Fox Box. Of course, the counterargument is that it's the summer season, when there is a drought of new programming, and that the general Fox Box numbers themselves don't go above 2.0 in ratings, and still don't compare well to the general ratings at other networks.

Exactly. Even if it's doing decently for them, it's not winning the war (a 2.0 is mediocre,) and atleast Winx is true it's source work. TMM is not true to it source. No company in America that'd over-localized magical girl has made it work. It's an unquestionably bad move given that prior evidence, and it's not going to garner them any huge ratings, just more animosity from everyone.

The problem with the 8 am time slot, is that, well, it's the 8 am time slot. The first time slot on Saturday morning is never the best one to get the most ratings. And don't forget that it's actually 7:00 am for the Central and Pacific time zones for regular network programming, which makes it even worse.

Yeah, some times you can't win when it comes to time slot. Granted, at this point, I'd have no problem with 4kids burying where noone would watch it. It speeds up the mainstream failure process that yields uncuts.

Can't do a magical girl series right by adapting a Japanese anime? I'm sure a lot of you would suggest creating your own series influenced by Japanese anime and manga . Then, sell a zillion copies of comics in Europe, and then create an animated TV show without having to deal with any Japanese company at all. The next billion-dollar property Disney is hoping was created by Disney Italy, W.I.T.C.H. (http://www.clubwitch.com/) and its animated TV show premieres in early 2005.

I'm sure Disney will have a go at the US market with W.I.T.C.H. If the writing is of the same grade as Winx and Mew Mew Power, they'll also have a nice little flop going too. Disney doesn't mean success, and if anything, it means it has the potential to be even more insipid than Mew Mew Power.

I'm sure that if Mew Mew Power fails to become a hit for 4Kids, then Disney will try their strategy at making a magical girl TV show work here, and having control over what they put out from the start should help them, and I think they have a better chance at making it work. I'll be honest, I don't know much about Tokyo Mew Mew, but I do know that 4Kids likely decided to adapt it because they see competition from companies like Disney. A big problem I see with radical changes to Japanese anime series is that it tends to make the show difficult to understand fully, and if you can't understand it, then why watch it? They might try to throw in some dialogue here and there for missing scenes and/or episodes, but then you start to wonder why it isn't there in the dub version (even though it was there in the original version).

4Kids went after TMM and Winx because they knew that noone was catering to girls specifically in animation at the time. They went after it because it was an open playing field, not because Disney was going later announce W.I.T.C.H., creating competition for the shows. 4kids wanted a shot an open market like they had with Pokemon back in the day. At the time they were working on aquiring more girls shows, that was the case as well.

But really, just going on the prior evidence and track record, 4kids is making a big, clear-cut mistake. Even if TMM gets a 2.0 overall on the Fox Box, it's still not as great compared to most other networks in the time slot running childrens animation, and it won't be enough to move the merchandise come next year when they launch the TMM merch. However, I doubt that TMM will pull anything better than Winx, and in fact will likely perform worse.

[Zero Angel]

thats an interesting piece of info.

Disney to try its hands at a Mahou-Shoujo show...

i dont know how i feel about that. i think it may come across, if they really put effort into it, like Totally Spies. if they are trying to do something a little inovattive like that (for american companies), then kudos to them, however. i see there being a little bit of a back-lash among some of the anime fans that would pay attention to Disney. likewise, Disney fanatics might also take it as a sign that Disney is just trying to do something that it shouldnt in trying to mimic the anime style yet again, and wonder why they just dont stick to their guns with Pixar.

enough on Disney's maybes. back to the topic at hand. well i might add that Sailor Moon had quite the following as a sleeper hit way early in the morning back when it was starting to be shown on tv in syndication (6am where i was). Dragonball was also the first thing to be shown on tv during its block of animation as well as Dragonball Z. i think that the material has more to do with getting a group of people to watch it then anything else.

if you try to talk about how FOX switched up its days for a few unnamed animated prime-time tv shows led to their eventual cancellation, then i will tell you that it wasnt a matter of the switched days but a matter of them no longer telling people when the shows were on.

[Sketch]

Disney might try to get live aciton Sailor Moon. It'd be difficult to make a show out of unless they just dub it but they'd still probably try.

[Karl Olson]

My bet on Live Action Sailor Moon is that Toei will bring Cloverway back from the grave to dub it, they'll try to shop it around, and fail. ADV, Funi or Geneon will then pick up the uncut rights.

[Zero Angel]

i dont know about them going to Cloverway with that issue given that...

Kunzite seduces and turns Ami to the dark side...kind of a steamy little sequence of events for a show that would be presented to a 8-11 audience

beyond that, i think that Sailor Moon LA would be the first to directly be brought over and not Power Ranger made.

[Conan-san]

i dont know about them going to Cloverway with that issue given that...

Kunzite seduces and turns Ami to the dark side...kind of a steamy little sequence of events for a show that would be presented to a 8-11 audience

beyond that, i think that Sailor Moon LA would be the first to directly be brought over and not Power Ranger made.
Seduce...right, if Seduce meens pritty much nuking your opponent with dark magic then this Suduction business has gotten the hell easier as of late.

:P

[Zero Angel]

either way i seem to remember how they dealt with the whole Dark Lady/Small Lady issues. i wasnt to happy with how they did that whole relationship.

[Tash]

Yeah, some times you can't win when it comes to time slot. Granted, at this point, I'd have no problem with 4kids burying where noone would watch it. It speeds up the mainstream failure process that yields uncuts.Say what?

Yu-gi-oh and Shaman King got uncut releases BECAUSE they were sucsessful. 4Kids' logic says that if it gets bad ratings, no one will care about uncut DVDs anyway.

[Zero Angel]

Say what?

Yu-gi-oh and Shaman King got uncut releases BECAUSE they were sucsessful. 4Kids' logic says that if it gets bad ratings, no one will care about uncut DVDs anyway.
that is a falsehood.

the reason why these shows got the uncut dvd release was because of the demand for them. if these shows didnt get the demand for them then they wouldnt exist, hence why we havent had the uncut release of Pokemon on dvd yet, even though it is incredibly popular.

[Karl Olson]

Say what?

Yu-gi-oh and Shaman King got uncut releases BECAUSE they were sucsessful. 4Kids' logic says that if it gets bad ratings, no one will care about uncut DVDs anyway.

No, they got uncuts because of non-stop pestering from the fans.

However, Ultraman Tiga, the only other 4kids property to date to get an uncut, got it's uncut because the series flopped on TV. Since TMM has fans demanding an uncut, and since it's likely to flop, well you can figure the rest.

[lostrune]

Yeah. People prefer their shows mahou shoujo stupid campy, not americanized E/I TVY7FV BS&P strangehold stupid.
Would you watch The Winx Club? ;)
No, and if I remember the ratings right, nor would many other people. That kind of show always gets trounced by the cartoon that's just got something interesting to draw the viewer in, whether that some card battling kid posessed by a spirit, or super powered aliens who never use their full power, or sponge that lives in pinapple that lives under the sea.

Again, business says, just make it fun/compelling/etc. Not edutaintional.
I don't find it "edutaintional" nor edutaining, unless you count fashion designing. :D

I asked because you said people prefer shows "mahou shoujo stupid campy." Well, that's how The Winx Club is! :p



Disney to try its hands at a Mahou-Shoujo show...

i dont know how i feel about that. i think it may come across, if they really put effort into it, like Totally Spies. if they are trying to do something a little inovattive like that (for american companies), then kudos to them, however. i see there being a little bit of a back-lash among some of the anime fans that would pay attention to Disney. likewise, Disney fanatics might also take it as a sign that Disney is just trying to do something that it shouldnt in trying to mimic the anime style yet again, and wonder why they just dont stick to their guns with Pixar.
Mayhaps you need a bit of the background info. W.I.T.C.H. is based on an Italian comics popular in Europe that it sells 900 000 copies a week. Manga is also popular in Italy, ergo the look. Even Japan caught the bug and even created a Japanese manga version:

http://www.disney.co.jp/hon/comic/witch/
http://www.disney.co.jp/hon/comic/witch/witch.html

[Karl Olson]

I don't find it "edutaintional" nor edutaining, unless you count fashion designing. :D

I asked because you said people prefer shows "mahou shoujo stupid campy." Well, that's how The Winx Club is! :p

It's still stupid in that OMGFriendShipN'Caring way, which has passed for E/I on other networks atleast. Kids don't buy into that. Certainly not when it's forced down their gullet, and it will be if the theme for TMM is any indication. Stupid campy mahou shoujo is fine, but it has to atleast focus on that. The audience is there are their for the fighting and hokey romance, not for the psuedo-fashion and faux-friendship tracts.

Mayhaps you need a bit of the background info. W.I.T.C.H. is based on an Italian comics popular in Europe that it sells 900 000 copies a week. Manga is also popular in Italy, ergo the look. Even Japan caught the bug and even created a Japanese manga version:

http://www.disney.co.jp/hon/comic/witch/
http://www.disney.co.jp/hon/comic/witch/witch.html

Well, it might work if Disney sticks to the original intent of the manga/comic, rather blanding it out like so many of their recent projects. Like I've said, the key to it is sticking to the source work, or so sales would indicate.

[Conan-san]

Mayhaps you need a bit of the background info. W.I.T.C.H. is based on an Italian comics popular in Europe that it sells 900 000 copies a week. Manga is also popular in Italy, ergo the look. Even Japan caught the bug and even created a Japanese manga version:
http://www.disney.co.jp/hon/comic/witch/
http://www.disney.co.jp/hon/comic/witch/witch.html
$20 says that Tokyopop will bring this, along with the Kingdom Hearts manga and the orgaional comic over in it's next round of accusaions.

[Zero Angel]

$20 says that Tokyopop will bring this, along with the Kingdom Hearts manga and the orgaional comic over in it's next round of accusaions.
i would take that bet with you considering that the Kingdom Heart characters are the property of Disney.

[Karl Olson]

$20 says that Tokyopop will bring this, along with the Kingdom Hearts manga and the orgaional comic over in it's next round of accusaions.


Though Disney and Tokyopop have worked together before (see: Kim Possible Cinemanga,) I wouldn't put past Disney to start their own manga imprint in America to release those works. As more and more kids get into manga, parents are looking for safe titles. Disney could provide that with out a second guess. OTOH, a T-Pop/Disney collab would be very beneficial for all parties, mainly because T-Pop would get a cut of the money, while Disney minimizes it's personal risk.

[Gary L Thompson]

Disney might try to get live aciton Sailor Moon. It'd be difficult to make a show out of unless they just dub it but they'd still probably try.
Actually, Disney could have really had the original with an ounce of intelligence. The House of the Mouse owned DIC for a good while, and in fact I think they were considering a live-action movie of Sailor Moon at one point.... It would have gone well with the "Babysitter's Club" they had adapted into a TV series at the time.

Of course, DIC found what Pixar and Gladstone and others have also discovered, that Disney makes as good a marriage partner as Elizabeth Taylor. Must be galling to DIC to be trying to put their empire back together, all the while seeing one of their prime stars (Inspector Gadget) making lots of money for Disney. I wish the people of the old Fox/Saban empire, now under the Sensation banner, all the luck in the world--based on past history, you're sure gonna need it.

[lostrune]

I asked because you said people prefer shows "mahou shoujo stupid campy." Well, that's how The Winx Club is! :p
It's still stupid in that OMGFriendShipN'Caring way, which has passed for E/I on other networks atleast. Kids don't buy into that. Certainly not when it's forced down their gullet, and it will be if the theme for TMM is any indication. Stupid campy mahou shoujo is fine, but it has to atleast focus on that. The audience is there are their for the fighting and hokey romance, not for the psuedo-fashion and faux-friendship tracts.
Nah, it's also shoujo staple to "depend on your friends till the end" and "love conquers all" and other such mooshy PSA stuff. :p
(I used to be a card-carrying KASHA member, if you've heard of it. :sweat: )

And like I said, I don't consider fashion or "pseudo-fashion" to be edutainment. Besides, shoujo is guilty of that too, sometimes moreso (ergo, the popularity of Licca-chan and K.I.S.S. dolls). *cough*Kerochancheck*cough* :anime:

So back to my question, would you watch (or at least give a chance) The Winx Club? Well? :)
(BTW, if you want my thoughts about it, just read some of its old talkbacks. You may be surprised. ;) )



Mayhaps you need a bit of the background info. W.I.T.C.H. is based on an Italian comics popular in Europe that it sells 900 000 copies a week. Manga is also popular in Italy, ergo the look. Even Japan caught the bug and even created a Japanese manga version:

http://www.disney.co.jp/hon/comic/witch/
http://www.disney.co.jp/hon/comic/witch/witch.html
$20 says that Tokyopop will bring this, along with the Kingdom Hearts manga and the orgaional comic over in it's next round of accusaions.
I heard Disney itself will be releasing the translated Italian original under their own label?

[Karl Olson]

Nah, it's also shoujo staple to "depend on your friends till the end" and "love conquers all" and other such mooshy PSA stuff. :p
(I used to be a card-carrying KASHA member, if you've heard of it. :sweat: )

Only in legend had I heard of KASHA. (I think Kyle Pope might have mentioned it in conversation once, though it could have been someone else at the local anime store.) You're quite the old schooler. :D

However, I may be a newer gen otaku, but the fact is most of the manga I buy it shoujo. Kare Kano? Check. Kodocha? Check. Wish? Check. Suki Dakara Suki? In English and Japanese, check. Cardcaptor Sakura? Boxset check, and the list goes on. The fact is I know what the hallmarks of shoujo are, and though there is at points, especially in mahou shoujo, some of the PSA-type stuff, it's not often handled in a blantantly-PSA way, atleast in any of the good shoujos. Heck, I wouldn't even call TMM a particularly good shoujo, but the PSA side of the message never overrode the fact they are fighting monsters with cute magical powers, and that Ichigo is totally crushing on some guy. Romance is still the main shoujo staple in the work, and the difference between the US and Japanese opening theme lyrics is proof enough the intent of work is being dumbed down and in-your-face moralized.

And like I said, I don't consider fashion or "pseudo-fashion" to be edutainment. Besides, shoujo is guilty of that too, sometimes moreso (ergo, the popularity of Licca-chan and K.I.S.S. dolls). *cough*Kerochancheck*cough* :anime:

I wasn't calling that particular aspect edutainment (sorry if came off that way,) I'm just saying that overt focus on it isn't why US viewers come to the table, and again, the handling counts. Kero-chan Check! is very tongue-in-cheek, and it's a short addendum after the episode, one that disappears eventually at that. Licca-Chan is basically a Barbie doll anime, so of course clothes are going to be part of the show. Context and handling are the make or break on that kind of thing, and when it comes up as addendum made by the translators in the US, it usually comes off as very hokey, and kids can see that. Nicely woven into the original from start, it works fairly well.

So back to my question, would you watch (or at least give a chance) The Winx Club? Well? :)
(BTW, if you want my thoughts about it, just read some of its old talkbacks. You may be surprised. ;) )

Though it's completely off topic of the point that I was making about 4kids thrashing Tokyo Mew Mew, I'm pretty sure I caught the Winx pilot, or atleast some of it. It's decent for a saturday morning line-up (I get the feeling it handled more honestly than any anime 4kids ever touched, which helps a huge amount) but I've seen better shoujo, because Winx, atleast in the episode I watched, it didn't have the same punch as other good mahou shoujos I've watched. Lots of gloss, but it was like it was going through the movements. But, since you're an old schooler, and should therefore likely know what you're talking about, I'll give second shot if I can get a tape in this weekend.

I heard Disney itself will be releasing the translated Italian original under their own label?

Not at all surprising. Disney's usually more proprietary than not. I was kinda surprised that ever did work with T-Pop.

[Sugah]

Tokyo Mew Mew (Mew Mew Power)-working US Title for FoxBox) seems imaginative. Almost every girl action anime is alike Sailor Moon, but we might as well enjoy them. ;) I'm a little power-mad on the fact they changed all the girls names...

[Gary L Thompson]

Nah, it's also shoujo staple to "depend on your friends till the end" and "love conquers all" and other such mooshy PSA stuff. :p
(I used to be a card-carrying KASHA member, if you've heard of it. :sweat: )

I never was a member, but a local comics/sports card store now gone for some years used to have regular KASHA showings for a while. I rather enjoyed them, they were different than the anime they were showing at other sites.

[lostrune]

Nah, it's also shoujo staple to "depend on your friends till the end" and "love conquers all" and other such mooshy PSA stuff. :p
(I used to be a card-carrying KASHA member, if you've heard of it. :sweat: )
Only in legend had I heard of KASHA. (I think Kyle Pope might have mentioned it in conversation once, though it could have been someone else at the local anime store.) You're quite the old schooler. :D
Nah, not that old-skool. It just so happened that when I was first starting out, it's one of those who helped me out (you needed connections back then) before disbanding, so just a twist of fate. :sweat:
(I've known Kyle Pope awhile too. Now, those fans who actually knew of the Canadian outfit "Arctic".... :D )


I never was a member, but a local comics/sports card store now gone for some years used to have regular KASHA showings for a while. I rather enjoyed them, they were different than the anime they were showing at other sites.
Oh yeah, you are in Michigan. :D

They were one of the few pro-shoujo groups back then (Techno-Girls and Tomodachi among the others). That made their shows unconventional. Beyond those, you could hardly find shoujo unless a phenomenon like Sailor Moon. :shrug:



The fact is I know what the hallmarks of shoujo are, and though there is at points, especially in mahou shoujo, some of the PSA-type stuff, it's not often handled in a blantantly-PSA way, atleast in any of the good shoujos.
Nah, it's not you. Probably just me seeing so much that it's like examples being pounded into my head whenever I see one. Still doesn't mean they're not there though. :D



And like I said, I don't consider fashion or "pseudo-fashion" to be edutainment. Besides, shoujo is guilty of that too, sometimes moreso (ergo, the popularity of Licca-chan and K.I.S.S. dolls). *cough*Kerochancheck*cough* :anime:
I wasn't calling that particular aspect edutainment (sorry if came off that way,) I'm just saying that overt focus on it isn't why US viewers come to the table, and again, the handling counts. Kero-chan Check! is very tongue-in-cheek, and it's a short addendum after the episode, one that disappears eventually at that. Licca-Chan is basically a Barbie doll anime, so of course clothes are going to be part of the show. Context and handling are the make or break on that kind of thing, and when it comes up as addendum made by the translators in the US, it usually comes off as very hokey, and kids can see that. Nicely woven into the original from start, it works fairly well.
I dunno... Many an anime are hokey too... Fans just don't notice it because they focus on other things.... :D



So back to my question, would you watch (or at least give a chance) The Winx Club? Well? :)
(BTW, if you want my thoughts about it, just read some of its old talkbacks. You may be surprised. ;) )
Though it's completely off topic of the point that I was making about 4kids thrashing Tokyo Mew Mew, I'm pretty sure I caught the Winx pilot, or atleast some of it. It's decent for a saturday morning line-up (I get the feeling it handled more honestly than any anime 4kids ever touched, which helps a huge amount) but I've seen better shoujo, because Winx, atleast in the episode I watched, it didn't have the same punch as other good mahou shoujos I've watched. Lots of gloss, but it was like it was going through the movements. But, since you're an old schooler,
Stop calling me that; that always gets me into trouble. :D
Like I said, read the talkbacks. You may be surprised of what I say. Or what the Italians say vs. the locals. ;)


I heard Disney itself will be releasing the translated Italian original under their own label?
Not at all surprising. Disney's usually more proprietary than not. I was kinda surprised that ever did work with T-Pop.
I think the T-Pop ones are "originals." Meanwhile, the Italian original is already published under the Disney label. :shrug: