JLU Season 1 finale (Spoilers)

[Batman's Biggest Fan]

It sounds like a Batman focused episode with him most likely meeting Terry McGinnis (Batman Beyond) That'd be the most fun to see. What do you think?

[Mattdotcom]

No, I'm afraid I wouldn't like to see that at all. I like Batman. I like Batman Beyond. I like Bruce. I like Terry. I just don't like their meeting for some reason. It just sounds wrong.

[ArtificialIdiot]

I just bet Bruce is going to be glad he still has all his own hair and dashing good looks :D

[Batman's Biggest Fan]

Well I don't know for sure if it'll star Terry, but I just hope bt will keep his promise and only keep BB a possible future.

[Yojimbo]

It'll great nontheless to see some interaction between present and future. Hopefully there won't be some deus ex machina and Saturn Girl from the Legion arrives and wipes everyone's memory out.

[Douglas Fir]

From what I've read the League will meet with the future league so unless things have changed substantially since we last saw him McGinnis is not a member of that league. Of course we'll have to wait and see if he makes an appearance or not - personally I'd like to see him do a little cameo appearance.

Also we don't know that the present-day Batman will be with the league when they meet their future counterparts.

Regardless - it should be a great episode!

[Nick K.]

From what I've read the League will meet with the future league so unless things have changed substantially since we last saw him McGinnis is not a member of that league. Of course we'll have to wait and see if he makes an appearance or not - personally I'd like to see him do a little cameo appearance.

Also we don't know that the present-day Batman will be with the league when they meet their future counterparts.

Regardless - it should be a great episode!

Batman is confirmed to be in that episode. Also, Terry will have to be on the League... would they do this crossover an dnot include Batman? I don't think so...

[Squall]

No, I'm afraid I wouldn't like to see that at all. I like Batman. I like Batman Beyond. I like Bruce. I like Terry. I just don't like their meeting for some reason. It just sounds wrong.
Heh, I feel the exact opposite -- I'll be very dissapointed if this isn't Batman Beyond and his JLU!

Bring on Terry McGinnis! :D

[kid_flash]

Here's the thing about JLU: It's a PURE geekfest. No more, no less. Just throwing that many superheroes in the watchtower at once is a hell of a geek thing. They animated AZTEK, for cryin' out loud! I never thought I'd see Aztek animated! Then they do THE QUESTION? THE ATOM? I'm in like geek Heaven.

So ya figure they're sitting around, figuring out how to make JLU just a little bit bigger, and little more epic, and still a one-hundred percent geekfest. Well, how about a crossover with BATMAN BEYOND? Even better, the JLU of Batman Beyond! Are you kidding me, the fans would LOVE it!

So I'm looking forward to it. Continuity be damned, this is the first time geeky desires have the right to overtake a need for surefire storytelling ("Initiation" was just barely a decent episode, but I loved every freaking second of it).

[Justice League 2000]

I am going to be very mad that the present Batman meet the future Batman. Like I said before Batman Beyond is a possible future.:)

[Nick K.]

I am going to be very mad that the present Batman meet the future Batman. Like I said before Batman Beyond is a possible future.:)

Well you just might be wrong about that.

[Wayman Tisdale]

He's mentioned very prominently in the episode description.

Actually, the episode summaries only mention Batman, Wonder Woman and Green Lantern being in the episode. Of course, that's only in Part One, so more Leaguers might join them in Part Two. It would be quite a disappointment for me and many other fans if they left Batman out.

I've got no doubts about that.

EDIT: JLU Kid beat me...
I don't doubt you but just where are you seeing these episode descriptions?

[DarkLantern]

How would the JL meeting the JLU-Beyond negate the fact that Batman Beyond is a possible future? Remember that Superman travelled to a possible future in "Hereafter" -- though he later made that possible future... well, impossible.

And you may remember that the memories were retained in past JL time travel stories -- so I wouldn't expect everyone's memories to be wiped at the end of "The Once and Future Thing."

DL

[Squall]

How would the JL meeting the JLU-Beyond negate the fact that Batman Beyond is a possible future? Remember that Superman travelled to a possible future in "Hereafter" -- though he later made that possible future... well, impossible.

And you may remember that the memories were retained in past JL time travel stories -- so I wouldn't expect everyone's memories to be wiped at the end of "The Once and Future Thing."

DL
Yeah, exactly. :D I was going to draw a comparison to this and the Trunks/Androids storyline in the Dragonball Z show. The time travel explanation the Trunks and Bulma give on that show would work perfectly here. ;)

How many alternate realities and possible futures have the DCAU already been through?

S:TAS "Brave New Metropolis"
JL "Legends"
JL "A Better World"
JL "Hereafter"
JLU "The Once And Future Thing"
...

[Batman's Biggest Fan]

Well I'd imagine old Bruce will tell our Bruce about how bitter he's turned out to be and tell him something like "when you have Barbara, let your obsession go. Don't turn out like me." And it said be interesting to see Terry's reaction to seeing Bruce in his prime and viceversa.

[Phantasm]

I'm just hoping they WON'T show Terry. I adore the guy, really I do.It's just that...I can't accept him as Batman.

[Knight]

You think they would go to a future Gotham and not show Terry? Sorry but almost everybody wants to see Batman reaction to his future protege.Terry is a great Batman.

[BlackoutCreature]

Listen, i know people here have problems with Batman Beyond being the definate future. But the fact of the matter is this - Bruce Timm and the rest of the JL team have gone out of there way not to contradict anything that happens in Batman Beyond. They obviously consider it the future of the animated universe. So whats with the "possible future" and "elseworld" garbage theyve been talking about for the last few years? Its just them hedging there bets. They just dont want to come out and say it for fear of pissing off a decent part of there audience. But to believe that theyre writing anything right now with the belief they can throw out aspects of Batman Beyond whenever they like is just foolish. And u know what? Justice League hasnt fallen to pieces because of it. They havent boxed themselves in or hurt character progression or done any of the other predictions of doom that people have been saying would happen if they did consider Batman Beyond the absolute future.

Also, using "The Once and Future Thing" to totally retcon the animated universe and eliminate Batman Beyond would be a disaster. It would invalidate anything that series has offered to the animated universe (and its offered a lot) not to mention show a blatant disregard for all that come before. I know people say that continuity should not get into the way of a good story, but the fact is continuity is a major part of a good story. Especially stories for a show like Justice League, which is obviously created around the shared universe idea. To pick and choose only certain aspects of that shared universe is not fair to the fans of that universe or fans of that show.

That said, i think the only thing that can happen in this episode is in the end the entire League's memory is erased by J'Onn. Cheap way out? Maybe, maybe not. But people have been asking for this crossover since JL began, and since all the other options on how to do this would only be doing both JLU and Batman Beyond a great disservice, then this is by far the best choice.

[All-Star 1.5]

Part 1 of the two parter really intrest me I mean the greatesst heros of the old west. Now I don't know really know that DC had any western characters other then Jonah Hex, but upon futher review I discovered that there were quite a few so out of all the characters that I read up upon the ones that interested me the most and thus the ones that I hope appear in the series are Bat Lash, Johnny Thunder, The Wyoming Kid, The Trigger Twins, and Jonah Hex.

And on a semi-related note wasn't Hex rumored to be an ancestor of Batman???

[Nick K.]

If BB turns out to be a future that never happened, like in Hereafter, that wouldn't be such a terrible thing... I suppose.

[Wayman Tisdale]

Click on episode guide on the Official JLU Website (http://www.cartoonnetwork.com/tv_shows/jlu/).Thanks, for some reason I TOTALLY forget about the official Cartoon Network site with the plethora of other ones hanging around that cover the show extensively. I actually always thought "The Watchtower" was the official one for some reason??

Boy I don't know about those episode blurbs, it doesn't sound like they're using the full potential of all those heroes at their disposal?

In the next episode "For the Man Who Has Everything" is it ONLY Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman with Mongul obviously? I would think with ONLY 13 episodes to work with at a half hour a pop, they would orient us to as many of the newer heroes as they possibly could, especially in the earlier eps.

That "Kid's Stuff" episode sounds dreadful, and yet another one with only members of the original animated seven team members. I feel with only 13 eps to work with and ALL those characters to play with, an episode like "Kid's Stuff" is a total, utter, and complete waste of an episode, another unnecessary throwaway ep that could be used for so many other things and heroes.

Of course it's way too soon for me to judge the season but from those descriptions it doesn't sound like "Unlimited" is used to the essence of the word.

P.S. What have you heard about Aquaman this season? They're very ambiguous about him this go around. You see his name on lists and you see his likeness in some of the promo pics but yet nothing concrete in terms of a definitive appearance?

[DarkLantern]

Hey, now... don't read too much into my post about the status of the Beyond universe to predict a non-existent fate. You know the JL gang doesn't like to use the same plot device twice...

DL

[Squall]

...But if Batman already knows his future, how could he just let the events that happened in ROTJ or "The Call" happen? Maybe, he just realizes he should leave the future alone, but how could someone like Batman, who values human life more than anyone just let those horrible things happen?
Who says that Terry would tell young Bruce anything? :D "The Call" was a potential catastrophe that was averted, so there's no reason to tell them that story. (I'm sure that many other future potential catastrophies were averted in the Batman Beyond/JLU time; that was just the only one ever animated.)

I'm betting that, when Batman shows up, old Bruce will tell Terry over the comlink, "Don't tell the younger me anything, or let them near Wayne Manor." How can Batman go back to the present and change something he doesn't know about? :D

[Devils_Advocate]

I look at the writers being careful not to contradict BB is not to ensure that that is the future but to state that it COULD be the future.

The future is changeable by the actions of the past and present. If for some reason something changed and BB ended up not the future of the DCAU, it does not negate the show but told a story of the potential future based on the current actions of the present.

The future is always subject to change. stepping on an insect could change the future. Think of the futility of living if the future can not be changed by our actions. I don't think the DCAU is a world of predestination (the future has been determined and can not be changed).

I am in fact hoping that the shown is not the BB future. That way by the end of the episode we still won't know what the future holds. By the travel in time of the JLU it changed the future which leads to the possibility that it changed it to the BB future or some yet unknown future. Therefore the future remains the mystery it should be.

D_A

[FALLEN ELDOR]

I don't mind BB as a whole, I don't hate or begrudge it at all. But I don't want Tim to be gone, I want to see him on JL, and older like he was on SS. My problem isn't with BB as a whole, it is with aspects like ROTJ and the obvious continuity problem that exist with the Royal Flush Gang that bothers me.

That said I definitely prefer the future of Kingdom Come over BB...That said, I prefer The Dark Night Returns, because Joker's death...ah crap he was killed in that as well! :mad: Stop killing Joker dammit!

[Wayman Tisdale]

I've heard that "Kids' Stuff" will actually be a very good episode and I'm looking forward to it. Besides, they probably decided that the leaguers would become 8 years old for a reason, considering that's the age Batman was when his parents were murdered.

I haven't heard anything about Aquaman, but I wouldn't be surprised if he appeared in "The Return" or "Wake The Dead." Of course, he might appear next season as he was shown in the crowd of heroes in "Initiation."I know how you like to spin things positive(and you're a big Bruce Timm zealot) but what or who gives you the idea "Kid's Stuff" is remotely going to be a good episode? I can't imagine in the BEST case scenario with a plot like that and no new heroes gracing the screen this episode could possibly have any redeeming quality with a cheesy premise like that? It would be considered corny for The Superfriends, in fact I think they did do a duddy episode like this years ago, it sounds very familiar.

It may be better than I expect because I expect a zero or a one out of this episode and MY expectations will be low. I don't care if it's better than I expect, I have a strong feeling this episode is heading towards "War World", "Critters", "Batman in my Basement" infamy. PLEASE don't take this as a slight to you, I just disagree based on the DCAU track record and left turn episodes like that compared to their other usual brilliance.

As far as Aquaman goes, I think your feeling is as solid as any. If he has any chance of showing up, it would be those eps you mention based on what I know about the season. But I tell you I would love for Superman or Batman to soapbox to him about not being so self absorbed about Atlantis. I'm a big Aquaman fan and I've ALWAYS hated when he's pigeon holed into that "King of Atlantis" slop. I always liked him better as "King/protector of the OCEANS" and a straight up JL pivotal flagship member/leader. Ya know have Batman say something like "If you don't help us take back the shores from Darkseid, I hate to break it to you "King" your precious Atlantis is next and WE won't be around to help!"

[Wayman Tisdale]

nothing (the poster who has friends in very high places) said it's good, and he is pretty much always right. Besides, I refuse to believe that they arbitrarily decided that the Leaguers would become 8-year olds. I could be wrong, but it's just too much of a coincidence that they would choose the age Bruce Wayne was when his parents were murdered.

There's also a slim chance that Etrigan might return (I'm not counting on it, but one can be hopeful) because Mordred is the villain in the episode.You think you're reading into that age thing a little too much, just because they said the characters were around or eight on the nose this has correalations to Batman's parents death??? WOW, I think you may overthinking this one a little. For a functioning "kid" there's really only a few ages you could choose, WHY NOT eight? But I hope you're right in that it's much more than a fluffy, throw away kiddie episode. Because I know when I was a "kid" I HATED episodes(Superfriends, Spider-Friends, GI Joe etc) that were condescending, placated to me and treated me as a dopey 8 to 11 year old moron.

[maxnugget]

You think you're reading into that age thing a little too much, just because they said the characters were around or eight on the nose this has correalations to Batman's parents death??? WOW, I think you may overthinking this one a little. For a functioning "kid" there's really only a few ages you could choose, WHY NOT eight? But I hope you're right in that it's much more than a fluffy, throw away kiddie episode. Because I know when I was a "kid" I HATED episodes(Superfriends, Spider-Friends, GI Joe etc) that was condescending, placated to me and treated me as a dopey 8 to 11 year old moron.

Justice League is not, and has never been, a show that had a need or desire to be condescending. Why presume that an episode about 8-year olds is going to treat the viewer like an 8-year old? That doesn't make any sense to me. In my view, it's never fair say an episode is going to be terrible before A) you have any real knowledge of what the episode is about, and B) you've seen the episode. Speculation's fine, but frankly there ain't no reason this couldn't be the best episode of the season. If it's going to be a comedy, all it has to do is be FUNNY. If you detest the very notion of a comedy in the DCAU...well, most of us enjoy occasional comedies. And, heck, for all we know this could be one of the most serious, dramatic, and darkest episodes of the entire DCAU. Just because the main characters become 8-year olds doesn't mean much (and the title could be intentionally ironic).

[maxnugget]

Well, in a way that's good to hear. It would be cheap if they lost their memories, but if Batman already knows his future, how could he just let the events that happened in ROTJ or "The Call" happen? Maybe, he just realizes he should leave the future alone, but how could someone like Batman, who values human life more than anyone just let those horrible things happen?

Actually, if BB only becomes a possible future or it's erased after this, then wouldn't that make the entire series pointless? ...I really need Tylenol.

I just won't think about it until the episode airs, it's way too confusing.

I still think it would be very cool if the future in "The Once and Future Thing" was some completely (or partially) different future than Batman Beyond -- some other vision of how the future turns out. It could be mostly simialar to Batman Beyond (I certainly want to see a BB-style Gotham), but it's not the same future as BB. And, somehow, something that happens in this episode results in the future becoming the one from BB.

This is the most effective way to sidestep the issue of characters "knowing their future." They WON'T know their future. The future of Batman Beyond comes to pass as a result of either something that happens in this episode, or as a result of something Batman learns by seeing the non-BB future in this episode.

Perhaps in the future of this episode Batman DID join the JLU, and some terrible repercussion of him fully joining the JLU cause him to stay (or revert) to being a non-member in season 4, and up to and including the BB-future, seen in "The Call."

If they're going to tie BB into mainstream continuity, they should do it creatively. :)

[Nick K.]

Hey, now... don't read too much into my post about the status of the Beyond universe to predict a non-existent fate. You know the JL gang doesn't like to use the same plot device twice...

DL

As long as you say so... :D

[Legionaire]

I've heard that "Kids' Stuff" will actually be a very good episode and I'm looking forward to it. Besides, they probably decided that the leaguers would become 8 years old for a reason, considering that's the age Batman was when his parents were murdered.

Isn't that also about the age of the listed villain of the episode (trying to avoida spoiler mark here)? Or is he a bit older? Maybe they're just making the JL younger than the villain and 8 years is a coincidence?

Still, if you're right it will raise some interesting possiblities for the ep.

[Juu-kuchi]

I really do hope that Terry Batman will really be making that appearance. Then he gets owned by Bruce.

Terry: I can't believe I lost to you.
Elder Bruce: I wasn't surprised...

It would be interesting to see Young Bruce meet Old Bruce, I'm more convinced that it would be along the lines of Elder Bruce telling him "Things happened and things have changed" or something like that. Young Bruce says "I'll bide my time and wait for it regardless". I'm not quite sure, but I thought that kind of idea would work.

[Wayman Tisdale]

I really do hope that Terry Batman will really be making that appearance. Then he gets owned by Bruce.

Terry: I can't believe I lost to you.
Elder Bruce: I wasn't surprised...

It would be interesting to see Young Bruce meet Old Bruce, I'm more convinced that it would be along the lines of Elder Bruce telling him "Things happened and things have changed" or something like that. Young Bruce says "I'll bide my time and wait for it regardless". I'm not quite sure, but I thought that kind of idea would work.Man, no offense, but some of you guys are waaay too hung up on the animated universe no matter how convoluted the connection. Batman Beyond has no business in Justice League Unlimited, it seems the producers have a daunting enough task as it is incorporating the other 50+ heroes into storylines. Besides I can't speak for everyone but I'd MUCH prefer a Nightwing appearance waaaay before crowbarring a Batman Beyond one just to appease to WBophiles.

Again, no offense but I just don't think this character has any business on Justice League Unlimited, if he shows up or not.

[Wayman Tisdale]

I don't know how many times I've said this, but they're not incorporating 50+ heroes into the storylines. First of all, it's almost impossible and pointless to do that, and it's been stated before that the cast will be around 20.

I'd love to see Nightwing show up too, but I'm also very excited about this crossover. And I don't think they're appeasing the "WBophiles" because it's been stated by the creative team that they wanted to do something with the JLU Beyond, and that's exactly what they're doing.What makes you the end-all authority on how many members or heroes they're using, do you have get so technical, what's your source on this now? C'mon, I KNOW ALL 50+ won't be getting screen time, even if it's 20+ I still want to see the focus on them and not some fictitious overrated universe the producers created, ESPECIALLY and I've said this before because they have a limited 13 half hours to work with and that stuff clogs up pivotal screen time for the authentic DC heroes everyones hankering to see. I can see it being VERY difficult but just how is it "pointless"? Did you just slap that word in for the hell of it, it's called "Unlimited" you go all out, that's the point!

And hey if Aquagirl can be on that team than surely Aquaman can be on this one. Maybe THAT'S the opportunity for him to show up?

You have to admit you do have a major tendancy to back every move the producers make, no matter how obtuse, you're smitten with these guys, that's okay just admit to it(But don't let it cloud your objectivity). Batman Beyond on JLU is just silly, with ALL the other characters the can focus on especially Nightwing.

[maxnugget]

Man, no offense, but some of you guys are waaay too hung up on the animated universe no matter how convoluted the connection. Batman Beyond has no business in Justice League Unlimited, it seems the producers have a daunting enough task as it is incorporating the other 50+ heroes into storylines. Besides I can't speak for everyone but I'd MUCH prefer a Nightwing appearance waaaay before crowbarring a Batman Beyond one just to appease to WBophiles.

Again, no offense but I just don't think this character has any business on Justice League Unlimited, if he shows up or not.

Like it or not, Batman Beyond was one of the four major entries in the DCAU (along with BTAS, STAS, and JL), and, over the course of 52 episodes and one DTV, the stories told in Batman Beyond add substantial weight and history to the DCAU characters and events. For those of us that consider BB canon, it's such a HUGE chunk of the DCAU world that it would be criminal to not leverage its power or to underplay its significance when telling JL stories. One could even say Batman Beyond has been underutilized in stories told in JL.

To toss aside Batman Beyond (assuming you don't hate the show) would be just as wrong as to not connect Justice League to the history established in BTAS, or STAS. It would be just as wrong as it would be if season 2 didn't give any weight to the events of season 1, or if JLU season 1 doesn't respect and deal with the things that happened through JL season 2.

Or, to put it a different way: When the Joker shows up in Metropolis, shouldn't Batman follow him there? Shouldn't he come to help when Ra's Al Ghul comes to Metropolis and kidnaps Superman?

If the JL chases some villain into the future, shouldn't they deal with the fact that the JL has set foot into the world of Batman Beyond? Shouldn't Terry and the BB-era JLU try to help if the JL is chasing some villain into the future?

If Batman and Superman exist in similar continuity, and by the same creative teams, why shouldn't Timm & co capitalize on the chance to do episodes where Batman and Superman meet? And why not take the chance to have Batman and the JL step foot into the rich and fascinating world of Batman Beyond? Really, you can be no more critical of JLU doing an episode where the Justice League world meets the Batman Beyond world than you can of doing episodes where the BTAS world meets the STAS world, or the STAS world meets the JL world ("Twilight"), etc.

[Toddman]

Maxnugget has probably said it best, but I'd like to throw in my $.02...


that stuff clogs up pivotal screen time for the authentic DC heroes everyones hankering to see....

...Batman Beyond on JLU is just silly, with ALL the other characters they can focus on especially Nightwing.
I'd say there is an extremely large number of fans that are "hankering" to see Batman Beyond make a guest appearance on JLU.

And it seems to me that one could say that you're too hung up on an appearance from Nightwing (whose following in animation is no bigger than Batman Beyond's).


Toddman

[BlackoutCreature]

I never understood why so many people r clamoring for the return of the animated Nightwing. Everytime he was on the screen in TNBA all he did was whine about how Batman didnt love him. And just to justify his whining, Batman was usually written harsher and more inconsiderate then we would usually see him as. I realize his differences with Batman r historically one of Nightwings defining traits, but in TNBA he was just annoying. I would rather see Terry, who didnt spend the majority of his screen time complaining how much Batman sucks.

Besides, we know Nightwing cant appear on JLU for reasons beyond Bruce Timm's control. Why keep dwelling on something that just wont happen?

[ZorBrak]

I just bet Bruce is going to be glad he still has all his own hair and dashing good looks :D
Actully, in BB it had receded a lil lol ;)

[holyholy]

hehehe, lots of people gett'n all fired up over this "to batman beyond, or not batman beyond". when we all know, it's most likely gonna be the BB JLU, w/ terry.

but a better question is... will the older static shock be on the team. hehe.

and how about an appearance from zeta as well. hehe. okay, just kiddin, but not about static.

-holy x 2

[Paul_Cousins]

Maxnugget has probably said it best, but I'd like to throw in my $.02...


I'd say there is an extremely large number of fans that are "hankering" to see Batman Beyond make a guest appearance on JLU.

And it seems to me that one could say that you're too hung up on an appearance from Nightwing (whose following in animation is no bigger than Batman Beyond's).


Toddman
Honestly, I think a time-travel episode/movie/OVA where (Terry) Batman meets up with (Dick) Nightwing in his prime would probably work fairly well. At the very least it would be entertaining to watch. :cool:

[maxnugget]

What makes you the end-all authority on how many members or heroes they're using, do you have get so technical, what's your source on this now?

[QUOTE=Wayman Tisdale]C'mon, I KNOW ALL 50+ won't be getting screen time, even if it's 20+ I still want to see the focus on them and not some fictitious overrated universe the producers created, ESPECIALLY and I've said this before because they have a limited 13 half hours to work with and that stuff clogs up pivotal screen time for the authentic DC heroes everyones hankering to see.

As GMahler said, you keep sidestepping a central issue here. Insofar as the Animated DC Universe is concerned, the extensive world of Batman Beyond IS "authentic." It is a huge component of the DCAU timeline. Now, if the creators still believe that BB should remain only a "possible future" and thus don't do a JLU/BB crossover, that's their prerogative. However, that is not what you seem to be arguing in favor of. You seem to believe that the Batman Beyond world is simply not important enough to be directly addressed and visited in an episode of JLU.

While we could also look at this in terms of which characters have been under-utilized and should be featured more, such as Nightwing, that doesn't really have relevance to this discussion. Yes, Nightwing deserves an episode, because he's a well-liked character, he's been underexplored, and, he deserves closure, considering he's been part of the DCAU for a very long time (first as Robin and later as Nightwing). I guess, more specifically, Dick Grayson deserves better treatment, because he's historically been a centrally important character in the DCAU.

However, the fact that Nightwing deserves an episode more than Eclipso does not mean Batman Beyond ought to be cast aside. And, not to diss Nightwing/Dick Grayson, but in the big picture of the DCAU, Batman Beyond is significantly more important that Nightwing. Batman Beyond is essentially the continuation of the stories of every central BTAS (and even STAS) character and every BTAS storyline.

Were Justice League/JLU to not embrace Batman Beyond as a core part of its "history," the DCAU would be cutting off its left hand.

So, again, without droning on, if your contention is that Batman Beyond is undeserving of some focus in JLU (and by saying other things are "more deserving" you're basically saying that), my response is that there is scarcely anything that is more deserving of focus.


You have to admit you do have a major tendancy to back every move the producers make, no matter how obtuse, you're smitten with these guys, that's okay just admit to it(But don't let it cloud your objectivity). Batman Beyond on JLU is just silly, with ALL the other characters the can focus on especially Nightwing.

If I may reciprocate your advice, don't let your dislike of Batman Beyond cloud the objectivity of your argument. You can certainly say you don't like Batman Beyond and dread the idea of it getting yet another focus piece in the form of a JLU episode. You can say that you prefer BB to be a "possible future" and don't think it should be shown in JLU in such a way as to make it the future. What you can't say (or rather, what can't be effectively supported in an argument, IMHO), is that Batman Beyond is not a significant and important part of the DCAU. The facts negate that statement, just as the facts say that Max was an oft-present character in BB despite my wishing she wasn't. The fact is, Batman Beyond is HUGELY important, more important than any one character in the DCAU, perhaps, and deserves to be addressed far more than anything else you could put in a Justice League episode.

I don't think GMahler is any more "smitten" with the show creators than any of the majority of us here on these forums. I think if I were summing up GMahler's disposition towards the creators, it's similar to mine (and many DCAU fans): Bruce Timm & co. have consistently made high quality DC shows, from BTAS to TNBA to STAS to BB to JL. Even in their errors they have garnered respect. It's easy to look at an upcoming episode or series and speculate pessimistically about it: many of the best creative endeavors of world history were met with doubt and skepticism, and downright pessimism, before they were appreciated. However, given Timm's track record, and the fact that we all know he cares deeply about the quality of his shows and wants them to be good just as much as we do, we trust him enough to remain open-minded and not judge his work negatively before seeing it, and to not be worried that, somehow, JLU is going to be the first Bruce Timm show to make us turn off our televisions in total disgust. In short, we trust Timm's judgment. We know he doesn't hit a home run every time (like any normal human), and sometimes he just plain strikes out, but it's his batting average, and the spectacular home runs he does hit, that earns him respect.

It's sort of like how people view Steven Spielberg. Like any filmmaker worth talking about, Spielberg has made some bad movies. He's made movies that are less popular than the image/status of him, the director. If a new film is coming out, and it's directed by Spielberg, people look at it enthusiastically, because they trust the man. They know, when they go to see a Spielberg film, that even if they're not going to see a spectacular film, they're going to see a spectacular effort by a director who truly put his heart into the film, and, if the film is itself not spectacular, it's not from lack of effort. Even Spielberg's failures tend to be impressive to watch, because you can see the energy and enthusiasm and heart that went into trying to make it a success.

[Wayman Tisdale]

He's already been featured in 4 JL episodes (2 arcs) and made a cameo in another. He also had a spotlight episode in S:TAS and a cameo in one episode of JLU (so far). I wouldn't die if I never saw him again.

That's funny, I feel the exact same way about Hawkgirl and The Flash!

[Wayman Tisdale]

As GMahler said, you keep sidestepping a central issue here. Insofar as the Animated DC Universe is concerned, the extensive world of Batman Beyond IS "authentic." It is a huge component of the DCAU timeline. Now, if the creators still believe that BB should remain only a "possible future" and thus don't do a JLU/BB crossover, that's their prerogative. However, that is not what you seem to be arguing in favor of. You seem to believe that the Batman Beyond world is simply not important enough to be directly addressed and visited in an episode of JLU.

While we could also look at this in terms of which characters have been under-utilized and should be featured more, such as Nightwing, that doesn't really have relevance to this discussion. Yes, Nightwing deserves an episode, because he's a well-liked character, he's been underexplored, and, he deserves closure, considering he's been part of the DCAU for a very long time (first as Robin and later as Nightwing). I guess, more specifically, Dick Grayson deserves better treatment, because he's historically been a centrally important character in the DCAU.

However, the fact that Nightwing deserves an episode more than Eclipso does not mean Batman Beyond ought to be cast aside. And, not to diss Nightwing/Dick Grayson, but in the big picture of the DCAU, Batman Beyond is significantly more important that Nightwing. Batman Beyond is essentially the continuation of the stories of every central BTAS (and even STAS) character and every BTAS storyline.

Were Justice League/JLU to not embrace Batman Beyond as a core part of its "history," the DCAU would be cutting off its left hand.

So, again, without droning on, if your contention is that Batman Beyond is undeserving of some focus in JLU (and by saying other things are "more deserving" you're basically saying that), my response is that there is scarcely anything that is more deserving of focus.



If I may reciprocate your advice, don't let your dislike of Batman Beyond cloud the objectivity of your argument. You can certainly say you don't like Batman Beyond and dread the idea of it getting yet another focus piece in the form of a JLU episode. You can say that you prefer BB to be a "possible future" and don't think it should be shown in JLU in such a way as to make it the future. What you can't say (or rather, what can't be effectively supported in an argument, IMHO), is that Batman Beyond is not a significant and important part of the DCAU. The facts negate that statement, just as the facts say that Max was an oft-present character in BB despite my wishing she wasn't. The fact is, Batman Beyond is HUGELY important, more important than any one character in the DCAU, perhaps, and deserves to be addressed far more than anything else you could put in a Justice League episode.

I don't think GMahler is any more "smitten" with the show creators than any of the majority of us here on these forums. I think if I were summing up GMahler's disposition towards the creators, it's similar to mine (and many DCAU fans): Bruce Timm & co. have consistently made high quality DC shows, from BTAS to TNBA to STAS to BB to JL. Even in their errors they have garnered respect. It's easy to look at an upcoming episode or series and speculate pessimistically about it: many of the best creative endeavors of world history were met with doubt and skepticism, and downright pessimism, before they were appreciated. However, given Timm's track record, and the fact that we all know he cares deeply about the quality of his shows and wants them to be good just as much as we do, we trust him enough to remain open-minded and not judge his work negatively before seeing it, and to not be worried that, somehow, JLU is going to be the first Bruce Timm show to make us turn off our televisions in total disgust. In short, we trust Timm's judgment. We know he doesn't hit a home run every time (like any normal human), and sometimes he just plain strikes out, but it's his batting average, and the spectacular home runs he does hit, that earns him respect.

It's sort of like how people view Steven Spielberg. Like any filmmaker worth talking about, Spielberg has made some bad movies. He's made movies that are less popular than the image/status of him, the director. If a new film is coming out, and it's directed by Spielberg, people look at it enthusiastically, because they trust the man. They know, when they go to see a Spielberg film, that even if they're not going to see a spectacular film, they're going to see a spectacular effort by a director who truly put his heart into the film, and, if the film is itself not spectacular, it's not from lack of effort. Even Spielberg's failures tend to be impressive to watch, because you can see the energy and enthusiasm and heart that went into trying to make it a success.Very eloquent post Max, but I hate shoot some of it down, and I hate to break it to you but Batman Beyond DID NOT get this level of gushing when it was on the air, you immensely overrate it's popularity. People I spoke to and read about on the Net were very apathethic and circumspect about the show and basically didn't want to displace the original Batman series. That feeling didn't change much as the show progressed. Granted they made a few stand out episodes like "The Call" or "Meltdown", created some original villians like Blight but the reaction I sensed from DCAU fans was mostly negative(now of course this is predicated on who you talk to or what you read, at the time you read it)

The feeling was :

-It(BB) stubbornly refused to address or acknowledge nearly enough of the BTAS mythos and characters AND IMO the original series STILL had much life left in it and much more modern Batman stories to explore. How could the show possibly go....what...52 episodes and not at least touch on Dick Grayson, Tim Drake(wasn't referenced till that movie and not EVERYONE saw that), The Riddler, Alfred, Penguin, Bullock etc. It wouldn't have taken much and at least tied up some huuuuge plot holes and question marks to at the very least reference them. Now WHY must Batman Beyond be acknowledged in Justice League Unlimited if BB refused to acknowledge the many characters before it?

-Another thing I heard from people and sometimes felt myself was that Terry McGuinness was almost a blatant Peter Parker knockoff. A forced network move to placate to a younger audience, through WB/DC's version of Spider-Man.


My main point here is haven't you gotten ENOUGH Batman already, he's getting a redundant series on WB, he's a main cog on JLU and now you need his supposed futuristic version infiltrating a modern Justice League series via time travelling. Also, aren't you a little tired of these future/time hopping episodes. It's gotten a bit stale and cliche' hasn't it, with "The Savage Time", "Hereafter", "A Better World"? Besides doesn't the stuff in "A Better World" conflict with Batman Beyond's continuity, especially "The Call's" JLU?

[Devils_Advocate]

That's funny, I feel the exact same way about Hawkgirl and The Flash!
The difference being Hawkgirl and Flash are cast player versus guest or recurring status players. That's like saying one is tired of Fin and Munch on L&O:SVU. These are cast members.

[Dwayne McDuffie]

Besides doesn't the stuff in "A Better World" conflict with Batman Beyond's continuity, especially "The Call's" JLU?

No, not in the least, "A Beter World" took place in the present, in a parallel universe. "The Call" took place in the future.

Off topic, are you the basketball player/jazz musician, or is the name just n on-line handle?

[Knight]

No, not in the least, "A Beter World" took place in the present, in a parallel universe. "The Call" took place in the future.

Off topic, are you the basketball player/jazz musician, or is the name just n on-line handle?
You know Ive offten wondered that myself.I use to watch the Phoenix Suns back in the 90's in which a player by that name played on that squad.

[Wayman Tisdale]

No, not in the least, "A Beter World" took place in the present, in a parallel universe. "The Call" took place in the future.

Off topic, are you the basketball player/jazz musician, or is the name just n on-line handle?YES, thanks for the props, just when you think the world forgets left handed, post up, power forwards that don't insist on bringing the ball up as a faux point guard.

But I tell you, you think Batman pushed the human body as far it can go, I bet Karl Malone gives him a run for his money. We're basically the same age(drafted the same year) and I marvel at what he can do at his age(41). I'm a year younger and he's grabbing rebounds and doing no look passes and I'm doing no look bass guitar riffs.

[Simpler Simon]

Very eloquent post Max, but I hate shoot some of it down, and I hate to break it to you but Batman Beyond DID NOT get this level of gushing when it was on the air, you immensely overrate it's popularity. People I spoke to and read about on the Net were very apathethic and circumspect about the show and basically didn't want to displace the original Batman series. That feeling didn't change much as the show progressed.
If I can jump in for a minute, because I agree with you that Batman Beyond is generally looked upon as the weakest of the DCAU shows. HOWEVER, first of all it was not the creator's choice to make Batman Beyond, rather it was an idea "suggested" (read: forced) upon them by WB and the toy companies, so they made the best of a bad situation. Season 1 was actually solid and contained many ties and references to BTAS and TNBA (the battle in the batcave trophy room, Bane and Mr. Freeze, Barbara Gordon, etc.) Season 2 went off track because WB wanted to play the teen angst up and downplay the batman aspects of the show. Season 3 got back on track with Ra's Al Ghul and the JLU appearances. In the end, despite the fact that some of the stories were weak and others were inexcusable, there's no denying that the universe of Batman Beyond as a whole was a worthy future for the DCAU.



How could the show possibly go....what...52 episodes and not at least touch on Dick Grayson, Tim Drake(wasn't referenced till that movie and not EVERYONE saw that), The Riddler, Alfred, Penguin, Bullock etc. It wouldn't have taken much and at least tied up some huuuuge plot holes and question marks to at the very least reference them. Now WHY must Batman Beyond be acknowledged in JLU if IT refused to acknowledge to many characters before it?
:rolleyes: sigh. Do we really need to know that Alfred died from natural causes? Or that most of the Rogue's gallery probably died from old age? The team didn't address a lot of these characters because there was nothing to address. It addressed the characters it felt had something that needed addressing (Mr. Freeze, Ra's, Bane, and Joker) without simply re-hashing all the bad guys they'd done before. Like Timm mentioned in the commentary, doing a "Riddler Beyond" or "Penguin Beyond" is unoriginal. They created new villains. Whether you like what they did or not is your own opinion.


Also, aren't you a little tired of these future/time hopping episodes. It's gotten a bit stale and cliche' hasn't it, with "The Savage Time", "Hereafter", "A Better World"? Besides doesn't the stuff in "A Better World" conflict with Batman Beyond's continuity, especially "The Call's" JLU?
As I mentioned in another thread somewhere, Savage Time, Hereafter, etc. used time travel as a way to get the plot going, and was not the plot itself. The team needed a conveninent way to pay tribute to the WWII stories from the comics, so they used time travel. They needed to explain where superman disappeared to, so they used time travel. They wanted to show what an oppressive JL would be like without screwing up continuity, so they gave us an alternate world. Here, time travel IS the story, which makes it different from the episodes you've mentioned.

[Knight]

YES, thanks for the props, just when you think the world forgets left handed, post up, power forwards that don't insist on bringing the ball up as a faux point guard.

But I tell you, think Batman pushed the human body as far it can go, I bet Karl Malone gives him a run for his money. We're basically the same age and I marvel at he can do at his age(41).So it is you. I would have never figured you for a animation fan. That said -




The feeling was :

-It(BB) stubbornly refused to address or acknowledge nearly enough of the BTAS mythos and characters AND IMO the original series STILL had much life left in it and much more modern Batman stories to explore. How could the show possibly go....what...52 episodes and not at least touch on Dick Grayson, Tim Drake(wasn't referenced till that movie and not EVERYONE saw that), The Riddler, Alfred, Penguin, Bullock etc. It wouldn't have taken much and at least tied up some huuuuge plot holes and question marks to at the very least reference them. I agree it didnt but that didnt keep me from liking the series. I beleive the point of this series was to focus more on the new Batman and not so much on the old. Although the Terry and Bruce interaction was key to it having the success that I felt it did.


Now WHY must Batman Beyond be acknowledged in JLU if IT refused to acknowledge to many characters before it?I dont feel just because the show didnt acknowledge ever facet of the other Batman episodes that it in turn should not be acknowledged itself on other shows. For whatever reason it just didnt happen. I dont think that those particular circumstances should be held against it regards to its characters poping up in any of the modern day episodes of shows currently in production like JLU.


-Another thing I heard from people and sometimes felt myself was that Terry McGuinness was almost a blatant Peter Parker knockoff. A forced network move to placate to a younger audience, through WB/DC's version of Spider-Man.He and Peter are simular but to tell you the truth I actually like Terry more (never been a huge Spidey fan) Anyway from what I have read most of that is true about the WB demanding that they make a young Batman type series. So instead of letting someone else totally butcher the Batman leagcy Timm and Dini took it on and since it HAD to be made, Im sure they figured they would be the best at doing it. I personally liked the end result. They did a good job concidering they had to bow down to corporate executives.



My main point here is haven't you gotten ENOUGH Batman alreadyIs there such a thing. :D



, he's getting a redundant series on WB, he's a main cog on JLU and now you need his supposed futuristic version infiltrating a modern Justice League series via time travelling.Sure why not.It doesnt bother me.



Also, aren't you a little tired of these future/time hopping episodes. It's gotten a bit stale and cliche' hasn't it, with "The Savage Time", "Hereafter", Not yet. I dont expect them every week but they havent struck out yet.


"A Better World"? Besides doesn't the stuff in "A Better World" conflict with Batman Beyond's continuity, especially "The Call's" JLU?Dwayne Mcduffie has already spoke on that one.

[maxnugget]

Very eloquent post Max, but I hate shoot some of it down, and I hate to break it to you but Batman Beyond DID NOT get this level of gushing when it was on the air, you immensely overrate it's popularity. People I spoke to and read about on the Net were very apathethic and circumspect about the show and basically didn't want to displace the original Batman series. That feeling didn't change much as the show progressed. Granted they made a few stand out episodes like "The Call" or "Meltdown", created some original villians like Blight but the reaction I sensed from DCAU fans was mostly negative(now of course this is predicated on who you talk to or what you read, at the time you read it)

The feeling was :

-It(BB) stubbornly refused to address or acknowledge nearly enough of the BTAS mythos and characters AND IMO the original series STILL had much life left in it and much more modern Batman stories to explore. How could the show possibly go....what...52 episodes and not at least touch on Dick Grayson, Tim Drake(wasn't referenced till that movie and not EVERYONE saw that), The Riddler, Alfred, Penguin, Bullock etc. It wouldn't have taken much and at least tied up some huuuuge plot holes and question marks to at the very least reference them. Now WHY must Batman Beyond be acknowledged in JLU if IT refused to acknowledge to many characters before it?

-Another thing I heard from people and sometimes felt myself was that Terry McGuinness was almost a blatant Peter Parker knockoff. A forced network move to placate to a younger audience, through WB/DC's version of Spider-Man.


My main point here is haven't you gotten ENOUGH Batman already, he's getting a redundant series on WB, he's a main cog on JLU and now you need his supposed futuristic version infiltrating a modern Justice League series via time travelling. Also, aren't you a little tired of these future/time hopping episodes. It's gotten a bit stale and cliche' hasn't it, with "The Savage Time", "Hereafter", "A Better World"? Besides doesn't the stuff in "A Better World" conflict with Batman Beyond's continuity, especially "The Call's" JLU?

If you re-read my previous post you'll see that I never made the contention that Batman Beyond was a good series, nor that it was universally liked. In fact I even say several times that there's nothing unreasonable about saying, as you have done above, that you're sick of Batman hogging the spotlight, don't like Batman Beyond, and don't want to see BB get an episode in JLU.

However, the fact is that Batman IS a cornerstone of the DCAU, with Superman being the only other character to have nearly as much weight and development. While it's true that a character who has already had lots of episodes of development (like Batman) should sometimes step aside and let other characters get some needed development time, it's also true that the characters whom the DCAU series have already invested significant development in must not be slighted and must continue to be developed as all these events in JL/JLU are happening around them. If you recall, one of the more frequent criticisms of JL season 1, aside from Superman being portrayed as weak, was that there was no acknowledgement and continued development of the hardships his character endured in Legacy. Similarly, you say you want to see the creators continue, rather than abandon, the development of the Dick Grayson/Nightwing character. And similarly, those of us that don't hate BB want to see the extensive future DCAU world that the creators previously invested so much development effort into get some continued development in JL/JLU, the next chapter in the DCAU. We don't want to see BB get ignored any more than you don't want to see Nightwing get abandoned, because both were nicely developed and we were made to care about them.

With regard to BB's popularity, I still don't really see the relevance of that. Batman Beyond is a central pillar of the DCAU. It cannot be easily discounted. This is really the same argument Devil's Advocate made in his post. Hawkgirl and Flash NEED continued development, because they are part of the main cast. For better or worse, they are main characters on the show, and you can't simply ignore them or their history on the show, nor their impact on the animated world around them. The same could be said of Dick Grayson, as Robin was a main cast member in BTAS, and Nightwing was a main cast member in TNBA. The Batman Beyond series is a "main cast member" of the DCAU, and it's imperative that it not be ignored. And again, is it really unreasonable for a story told over the course of 52 episodes and a DTV to be featured in ONE episode of JLU? It deserves at least that much focus, if not more.

With regard to your Batman Beyond criticisms, those reflect your opinion of the show and your account of other people's opinions. Some of them I agree with, some I don't, but I'm not in this thread to debate whether Batman Beyond was a good show or not (though for what it's worth I do think it is a good show). Also, I agree that TNBA had much more life left in it. I don't agree with the idea that BB refused to acknowledge BTAS characters and thus JLU should refuse to acknowledge BB. With the exception of Dick Grayson, nearly every other key character from BTAS/TNBA (and even Superman) was acknowledged and given some sort of further development. We know the futures of Barbara Gordon, Bruce, Tim Drake, a host of rogues villains from BTAS...we know the future of Gotham City itself (which in some ways I almost value more than the individual characters -- Timm's vision of a future Gotham was brilliant and eye-popping).

Batman Beyond did not ignore or slight the rich history of BTAS/TNBA, it embraced it. Justice League should do the same.

[Krypton_Knight]

While I'm not a particularly big Batman Beyond fan - I always begrudged the fact that it took resources away that could have been spent doing a full 65 episode run of STAS - but even I'd be pleased to see a version of "The Call" JLU on the show.

It'd be a nice nod to those who worked on the earlier show.

KK

[DisneyBoy]

My feelings can be summed up in this brilliant quote:

"Actually, if BB only becomes a possible future or it's erased after this, then wouldn't that make the entire series pointless? ...I really need Tylenol."

LOL! Hey, I don't really care for BB at all...but it will be fun to see the future and past meet up, so all I'm hoping for is that I either fall in love with the episode...and then Batman Beyond as well...or that there's something I can hold onto as a hint that it may not all happen.

[Yojimbo]

As for whoever posted last page, it is confirmed that the league will be whittled down to about 20 people. The exact quotes are on Karkull's Watchtower site. I respect the attempt to make BB a stand alone series compared to the close knit BTAS, STAS, TNBA and JL. To do just one episode to look back at BB wouldn't hurt, wasn't the appearance on Static well recieved?

[Nick K.]

This thread rules.

A Batman Beyond/ JLU crossover is going to be good. Why is everyone so flame happy in here? :o

[Wayman Tisdale]

The difference being Hawkgirl and Flash are cast player versus guest or recurring status players. That's like saying one is tired of Fin and Munch on L&O:SVU. These are cast members.NO, it doesn't matter about their show status, Aquaman is MUCH more than a guest star to most Justice League purists. In my perfect world he would've been a regular right from the start.

It's MY prerogative(or Bobby Brown's) to think that way and I just don't feel Flash(too one dimensional) and ESPECIALLY Hawkgirl(boring mace, no exceptional powers) hold up as regular features in an animated series and I feel Aquaman does. That's the way I feel, I don't care what the producers inevitably did.

[Wayman Tisdale]

I respect the attempt to make BB a stand alone series compared to the close knit BTAS, STAS, TNBA and JL. To do just one episode to look back at BB wouldn't hurt, wasn't the appearance on Static well recieved?
I think it does hurt when the season is only thirteen episodes, it doesn't deserve that spotlight, it had it's run, time to move on for REAL Justice League and all it's rich characters.

[Yojimbo]

Characters are only defined when surrounded by others that bring out their qualities. For instance, the Flash will undoubtedly get a good pairing with the Elongated Man. And since, Hawkgirl is disinfranchised, it would be interesting to see where her character goes. Timm does the stories he wants to do. It's a safe bet that JLU will get renewed for two more seasons, so its not a total waste of an episode that you think it is.

[Wayman Tisdale]

While I'm not a particularly big Batman Beyond fan - I always begrudged the fact that it took resources away that could have been spent doing a full 65 episode run of STASYES, that irritated me as well, I remember reading about that and hating kids. Even more hating the network suits, and their dopey, forced hip, gimmicky trends.

Which is also why I didn't want Batman Beyond interloping on Justice League Unlimited. After it basically singlehandly put a halt to STAS and TNBA the LAST thing I wanted was for it to rear it's ugly head again, but I guess it's too late now.

[Wayman Tisdale]

You know Ive offten wondered that myself.I use to watch the Phoenix Suns back in the 90's in which a player by that name played on that squad.YES, a strange time for me with Phoenix. I watched my playing time shrink like Ray Palmer with the congestion of the forward position. We had the likes of Charles Barkley, Cedric Ceballos, Richard Dumas, AC Green, John "Hot Rod" Williams, things got a bit competitive to say the least and my playing time was scarce. I even played center a little just to see some minutes.

Though it was nice to advance to the NBA finals for the first time in my career, I wish I could've contributed a bit more in the way I did on Sacramento or even Indiana.