U.S. transfers sovereignty to Iraq 2 days early (Revised)

[RZetlin]

This news has caught most people off guard.

U.S. Transfers Sovereignty to Iraqi Govt. (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040628/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_sovereignty&cid=540&ncid=716)

Mind you this won't stop the killings. The U.S. wants to get rid of Iraq ASAP!

The country has become too much they bargained for.

[Fone Bone]

I have no idea what this means.:confused:

[Lucky Bob]

This news has caught most people off guard.

U.S. Transfers Sovereignty to Iraqi Govt. (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040628/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_sovereignty&cid=540&ncid=716)

Mind you this won't stop the killings. The U.S. wants to get rid of Iraq ASAP!

The country has become too much they bargained for.
Oh why, oh why did RZ have to start this thread? :rolleyes:

Anyway, I say it's more likely that they wanted to prevent a huge attack on the 30th. A couple of days early wouldn't have made a lot of difference as far as the body count went, but this kind of throws off the "insurgents'" symbolic timing.

I think it's a good idea. Good luck to 'em.

[Eddie G.]

4. This is one step closer to an elected Iraqi government.Questionable, but we can hope.

I can't say anything but that I will hope that Iraq can form a great goverment and keep peace. I also wish that no outside forces will have any negative influences, from both ends-west and east.

[SSJPabs]

So what is the US Military going to be in charge of? What is the role of the American army in the new Iraq? Do we know yet? I AM quite impressed that Bremer got out so fast.

[Juu-kuchi]

On one hand I'm a little cynical in feeling like RZ is...

But it is good strategy, I mean it was unexpected and would catch insurgents off-guard. How this new Iraq government will fare we all have to wait and see though...

[Delthayre]

I don't think this will go very smoothly. The new PM and President are former members of the interim governing council, so the new government already has a built in legitimacy problem.

This has all been happening too fast, I think more time was needed.

[guinaevere]

So what is the US Military going to be in charge of? What is the role of the American army in the new Iraq?Probably the same as our positions in Germany and Japan. US troops stayed in those countries how many years?

Learn the facts people, our sticking around is for the safety of the people and the new government, from the radical Saddam insurgants still remaining. (SSJPabs, this wasn't aimed at you, I'm just taking the opportunity to hopefully educate some folks that just because a new goverment is established and in power, it does not mean the military just hops on home. Again, how long did the US keep troops in Japan? How long in Germany?)


Mind you this won't stop the killings. The U.S. wants to get rid of Iraq ASAP!

The country has become too much they bargained for.RZ, for once, drop the spin and be honest. You know that if it had taken the handover as long as the timeline had projected, you would have said, "Bush didn't plan well enough. It's his fault it's taking so long!"

[Lord Dalek]

Well, this is it. The factor that will ultimately determine whether Bush will be reelected come November.

[Lucky Bob]

Probably the same as our positions in Germany and Japan. US troops stayed in those countries how many years?

I can vouch for Germany. Still there. And set for a while, too.

[Delthayre]

Given Iraq's potentially important strategic position, the U.S. may well end up sustaining a military presence there for a very, very long time.

[Tienshin]

Given Iraq's potentially important strategic position, the U.S. may well end up sustaining a military presence there for a very, very long time.

This is correct and the best course of action. Right now the Iraqi security forces are in an infant stage in terms of rebuilding, and until they can be adequately trained a coalition military presence is absolutely necessary.

As it stands the Iraqi leaders have some tough decisions to make in the coming days and weeks, not the least of which is the current security concerns. And now that the US has disengaged a bit and put some responsibility on the Iraqi people I would imagine they would want to address the issue of the insurgents in a decisive manner.

The hand over is a great indication that progress is being made towards a fully independent Iraq.

[CookieS]

I agree. Handing over soverrignty a few days early was a good idea. This step happened, which shows that we're still on plan.

[guinaevere]

I can vouch for Germany. Still there. And set for a while, too.Exactly. You get a cookie.

[Squall]

This news has caught most people off guard.

U.S. Transfers Sovereignty to Iraqi Govt. (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040628/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_sovereignty&cid=540&ncid=716)

Mind you this won't stop the killings. The U.S. wants to get rid of Iraq ASAP!

The country has become too much they bargained for.
OK... people are killed by other people in every nation on Earth every day. There will always be people who commit crimes. And your point is...? :rolleyes:

The U.S. has never had any intention of turning Iraq or Afghanistan into 'colonies' -- as your statements seem to imply -- and how the U.S. treated Japan, Germany, and Italy after World War II are good examples. We helped turn Japan, Germany, and Italy from the chaotic, agressive dictatorships they were before and in World War II and converted them into the stable, peaceful, sovereign democratic republics they are today. And yes, they are also U.S. allies. Why is any of that a bad thing?
:confused:

I hope that Iraq and Afghanistan end up being the same way -- stable, peaceful, sovereign democratic republics. And hopefully U.S. allies in the end as well. :)

[Lucky Bob]

*EXCLUSIVE*UPDATE*EXCLUSIVE*UPDATE*EXCLUSIVE*UPDATE*

Must credit ***LUCKY BOB***

A little over a year ago today, fellow Toon Zone poster Psilon made a wager (http://forums.toonzone.net/showpost.php?p=714394&postcount=59) to a young luckybob1985 concerning the rebuilding of Iraq.



Anyways Luckybob1985 you owe me a drink if Bush does not properly rebuild Iraq.
Seeing as how Iraqi sovereignty has been handed back to the Iraqis without a bloody civil war breaking out in the process yet, I think it is safe to assume one of two things.

#1. By default, since the U.S. has successfully handed over power to the Iraqis and have no administrative control thereover, it can be inferred that the U.S.'s role in "rebuilding" is officially over, without failure.

...or...

#2. If the critereon was a continued and successful government by the Iraqi people, which one could argue is moving the goalposts a bit, Psilon's drink is in great danger.

Therefore, I officially request a drink at the expense of Psilon, if we ever meet. The satisfactory drink would be a non-alcoholic pina colada with a paper umbrella on top. And, if Mr. Psilon is feeling generous or morally obligated, he may throw in an A&W Cream Soda or a Barqs Root Beer for the Iraqi transfer of power having been executed with style.

Developing...

[randomguy]

non-alcoholic pina colada
*snickers*

[Lucky Bob]

*snickers*
...and a sasparilla for randomguy.

[guinaevere]

*EXCLUSIVE*UPDATE*EXCLUSIVE*UPDATE*EXCLUSIVE*UPDATE*http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/guinaevere/smilies/grudge.gif Looks like that cookie just wasn't enough... :p


This is correct and the best course of action. Right now the Iraqi security forces are in an infant stage in terms of rebuilding, and until they can be adequately trained a coalition military presence is absolutely necessary.While you're absolutely correct, it isn't just the officials that are in infant stages, but the people, too. This is not an insult, but rather, a welcome to a more liberated life. For the first time, the sight of a woman driver will not be an oddity, or a target.

It's SO exciting to watch the Iraqis as they embrace the freedom and dignity they deserve!!

[SSJPabs]

Um, the country has been rebuilt? Excuse me while I bust a gut.

Anyhow, the important thing Bush learned is that the way to truly establish legitmacy and get things done was to work within the constraints of the international communites (NATO and UN in this case) it just took him $120 billion, 700 US dead, and a black eye for the country for the next 20 years to learn it.

But the Iraq may STILL self-destruct, let's just hope it doesn't. Because contrary to what I'm sure some of the righties would like to believe I hope Iraq DOESN'T descend into civil war and I hope Iraq DOES become a stable nation that is capable of self-determination; even if the result is Iraq hating the US.

Militarily, what I was getting at is will the US retire to their bases, or will they continue to patrol for the foreseable future?

[Lucky Bob]

I will say that it's kinda sad that, for whatever reason, there will always be some people who will never see the good that happened in Iraq, nor expect the Iraqi people to do well, which I feel is an insult. Either life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are a universal human desire, or they're not. To somehow pretend that Americans can make it happen, and Iraqis can't, is to either portray the Founders as lunatics, or the Iraqis as subhuman, in my opinion.

Of course, I don't think there's any underlying malice here by those who want Iraq to be a failure one way or another, it's just politics as usual. I hope I'm not wrong, though.

Either way, I still want a pina colada. It's been a while. At this point, I might even try shaved ice. :shrug:

[The Overlord]

I will say that it's kinda sad that, for whatever reason, there will always be some people who will never see the good that happened in Iraq, nor expect the Iraqi people to do well, which I feel is an insult. Either life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are a universal human desire, or they're not. To somehow pretend that Americans can make it happen, and Iraqis can't, is to either portray the Founders as lunatics, or the Iraqis as subhuman, in my opinion.

Of course, I don't think there's any underlying malice here by those who want Iraq to be a failure one way or another, it's just politics as usual. I hope I'm not wrong, though.

Either way, I still want a pina colada. It's been a while. At this point, I might even try shaved ice. :shrug:Your engaging in a logical fallacy, using sentimental agruements rather than factual ones. Comaparing America to Iraq does not work. There is a good chance of a civil war in Iraq due to unique political stituations that located within Iraq due to its own history. Saddam maintained power by making the Sunnis the overclass in Iraq. Now that Saddam is gone the formly oppressed Shiites may wish to gain revenge on the Sunnis and the Sunnis will be resentful over having lost their overclass status. Bush merely does not understand the particular history of Iraq that may doom his efforts to failure.

[wrenchien]

better now.

than never.

[Delthayre]

I will say that it's kinda sad that, for whatever reason, there will always be some people who will never see the good that happened in Iraq, nor expect the Iraqi people to do well, which I feel is an insult. Either life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are a universal human desire, or they're not. To somehow pretend that Americans can make it happen, and Iraqis can't, is to either portray the Founders as lunatics, or the Iraqis as subhuman, in my opinion.

Of course, I don't think there's any underlying malice here by those who want Iraq to be a failure one way or another, it's just politics as usual. I hope I'm not wrong, though. Come now, you're not thinking of people, only of caricatures that I should think strike you as too convenient.

My grim predictions for Iraq come from two sources. The first is my natural pessimism and gloomy disposition. The second is the nature of the state as it stands. Beyond the nigh insurmountable albatross of the conflict between Sunni, Shia, and Kurds I see a problem with the government itself. The two appointees are both connected to the IGC, a collection mostly of elite expatriates that never had real legitimacy with the people. A new government must appear legitimate and independent, something that will not be easy to do. And when Iraq's elections come around in fall it seems quite possible that an Islamist government would elected, thus threatening the continued existence of democracy in a country that has no democratic tradition. And there's always the danger that the new heads of state themselves will attempt to seize power, something that could be dangerous regardless of its sucess or failure.

I think we should have waited longer and spent more time and effort building the rudiments of a democractic and federalistic tradition from the bottom upward and not allowed any members of the IGC to take leading government positions.

The was, at least, none of the waves of violence and unrest that had been predicted would precede the turnover. The eerily reasonable and level-headed, as well as very influential, Ayatollah al Sistani has ordered his followers to be peaceful and compliant and some Sunni clerics are now decrying the insurgent attacks.

I desperately want Iraq to become a free and republican society with genuinely public institutions and full, uninfringable freedoms. I never resolved myself in support or opposition to the war, only that by undertaking it we must take up the burden of creating a free state in Iraq, but much seems weighed against that and I am almost rendered gelatinous with despair of what failures might so easily come, though I hope with all that damned idealism I try to keep stowed in a shadowy corner that they never do.

[Tapout]

I'm looking foward to what the Iraqis deside to do with Saddam. That should be fun for all ages.

[SSJPabs]

To somehow pretend that Americans can make it happen, and Iraqis can't, is to either portray the Founders as lunatics, or the Iraqis as subhuman, in my opinion.

Of course, I don't think there's any underlying malice here by those who want Iraq to be a failure one way or another, it's just politics as usual. I hope I'm not wrong, though.Hinting that those who disagree with your position are racist or ethnocentric however subtly is putting up a staw-man. It has nothing to do with the lack of will or ability of people; any people can have the will to do as much as any other people.

However, here's where I think we differ. I believe self-determination and responsive government can best be achieved (fastest and most easily) when said people have the resources, institutions and cultural reinforcement to do so. Otherwise it requires a much more sustained and expansive effort to create those conditions. I have come around to the idea that it takes more than economic strength (re: China) alone to do the job.

Secondly, I don't know anyone who isn't a radical who seriously wants Iraq to be a failiure. If Iraq is a failiure, it becomes a seething morass that really will become a haven for terrorists and that will be very very bad. Not only that, if it becomes a lawless region the Kurds will probably break away from it, which means Turkey invades to prevent the creation Kurdistan. So now we had to go in to it, I want Iraq to become a stable government. There may not be any WMD there but there weren't any in Afghanistan either and when terrorists were based there they managed to strike out pretty well.

Personally, I am gratified that Bush listened to John Kerry and used international organizations and alliances to help stabalize Iraq and gain legitimacy for the place on terms EVERYONE can agree on, not just what Bush wants. Now if Bush just continues to listen to Kerry in all things promptly I think I can work with him. :D


Either way, I still want a pina colada. It's been a while. At this point, I might even try shaved ice. :shrug:Try an Orange Julius, those are always quite good.

As to rebuilt look at the electricity numbers for 1 example: pre-war fluctated between 3,300 to 4,400, power under the CPA peaked in October at 4,518 (for 1 day only) with it usually hovering around 4,000. Summer's arrived too. Suck. At least it wasn't used as a political lever like when Saddam was in charge. (All numbers in megawatts)

EDIT: Hey, not to add insult to injury LB, but here's a story titled Iraq's basic services worse now than before war, GAO says. (http://http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2001968744_gao30.html) Here's to nattering nabobs of negativity.