Justice League Fresh Question #1 [Archive]

Trent Lane

10-29-2001, 11:26 AM

Let's see, how would you get these guys set up to fight? Who gets to bypass the first round, seeing as there are seven of them? You'd have Flash v. GL, Hawkgirl v. Martian Manhunter, and WW v. Batman, with Superman getting past the first round. Your victors are GL, MM, and (don't throw anything) Batman. So next it's Supes v. GL and MM v. Batman. Your victors of this round would be Supes and (sadly) MM. In the final bout, Superman wins a hard fight...

comixboy

10-29-2001, 03:10 PM

BATMAN WINS ALL!!!

metaphysician

10-29-2001, 04:10 PM

It depends on a couple of factors.

-Preptime: if there is any significant preptime, Batman's capabilities increase exponentially. Even with just a little, he had decent odds against most of the JL.

-Fight Arrangement: is it a free for all, or a set of pair matches??

-Arena: open areas favor the power characters, ceilings hurt flyers, cocnealment helps Bats and MM.

-Presumptions: if everyone is assumed to fight at their best capability, superspeed basically decides the bout.

If we assume
-1 hour prep before each fight
-random pairs, one on one
-City Arena
-typical performance

Then here's how it goes:

Preliminary

Batman vs. Wonder Woman: Wonder Woman finds herself denied a target, and has to search for Batman. While searching, she runs into sensory overload attacks and explosives. She is taken down by massive doses of tranquilzers, delivered through surprise darts and gas.

Flash vs. Green Lantern: Flash ends up doing something foolish, making him vulnerable to a knock-out blow.

Superman vs. Hawkgirl: Unfortunately, Hawkgirl is out of her league ( hehe ). Even with as much Thanagarian tech as she can carry, she isn't likely to win this fight.

Martian Manhunter gets the by.

Semi-Finals

Martian Manhunter vs. Green Lantern: MM screws with GL's concentration telepathically, then closes for the knock-out.

Superman vs. Batman: You saw it coming. Sensory overload is mercilessly exploited, and Superman discovers that Batman had already formulated a knock-out drug designed for Kryptonians.

Finals

Batman vs. Martian Manhuner: MM would do well, except that Batman has psi-shielding equipment, and MM has a ridiculously easily exploited weakness. Expect alot of incendiaries.

Placing:

1. Batman
2. Martian Manhunter'
3. Superman
4. Green Lantern
5. Wonder Woman
6. Flash
7. Hawkgirl

Joe Tully

10-29-2001, 05:59 PM

I'd have to hand it to MM. He is very strong, and for those who are just as powerful or more powerful, he has his telepathy. Supes is very weak to mental attacks. Even if he had time to prepare, I dunno if Bats could prepare for absolutely everything that MM had. Even if Bats thinks that he has everything planned, MM could turn into something completely unpredictable, like some creature from another planet. Also, I don't see how Bats could protect himself from telepathy, which MM could even use to tell what Bats was planning, as well as mental attacks. Plus MM's invisibility and shapeshifting...MM is definitely the favorite. Bats could have some flame-throwers and so on given preparation time, but I think that MM's telepathy would help him see through the tricks. GL could have a chance at beating MM if he used his ring to conjure up some green flame, but I think that the telepathy would allow GL to be damaged from a safe distance. The telepathy really swings the contest into MM's favor. If he didn't have that, it could easily be someone else.

Ricochet

10-29-2001, 06:56 PM

Batman would win for two reasons.

1) All the others would rely too heavily on their powers. Batsy is human, so he would use his raw human mind and body power.

2) Batman could easily plot the others' weaknesses and whoop their fannies!

My fave is GL, though!

metaphysician

10-29-2001, 10:02 PM

Originally posted by Joe Tully
I'd have to hand it to MM. He is very strong, and for those who are just as powerful or more powerful, he has his telepathy. Supes is very weak to mental attacks. Even if he had time to prepare, I dunno if Bats could prepare for absolutely everything that MM had. Even if Bats thinks that he has everything planned, MM could turn into something completely unpredictable, like some creature from another planet. Also, I don't see how Bats could protect himself from telepathy, which MM could even use to tell what Bats was planning, as well as mental attacks. Plus MM's invisibility and shapeshifting...MM is definitely the favorite. Bats could have some flame-throwers and so on given preparation time, but I think that MM's telepathy would help him see through the tricks. GL could have a chance at beating MM if he used his ring to conjure up some green flame, but I think that the telepathy would allow GL to be damaged from a safe distance. The telepathy really swings the contest into MM's favor. If he didn't have that, it could easily be someone else.

Batman has gadgets specifically to block telepathy.

Hell, he probably has gadgets pre-made specifically designed for battling every other Justice Leaguer, just in case they go rogue ( see Tower of Babel ).

Joe Tully

10-29-2001, 11:00 PM

Eh, I still give it to MM. I think he could pull a few things that Bats wouldn't expect. Besides, if Bats can plan in advance, so could anyone else. And if you're going to fight Bats, I think you'll try to come prepared. (Superman with radiation suit, MM with fire-proof gear and some magnet or some martian tech. to disrupt the gadgets, maybe a fire truck. ;) ) Maybe not as well prepared as Bats, but certainly not about to leave yourself wide open to attack.

You also can't give too much planning to Batman. It's unfair to assume that the fight will occur in some room that Bats has completely covered with traps. MM is a smart guy and I think that he would be wary of following Bats into traps.

Anyways, IMO MM wins. I think that if Bats had time to get gadgets, MM would have time to realize that Bats would use them and plan a way to neutralize them.

metaphysician

10-30-2001, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by Joe Tully
Eh, I still give it to MM. I think he could pull a few things that Bats wouldn't expect. Besides, if Bats can plan in advance, so could anyone else. And if you're going to fight Bats, I think you'll try to come prepared. (Superman with radiation suit, MM with fire-proof gear and some magnet or some martian tech. to disrupt the gadgets, maybe a fire truck. ;) ) Maybe not as well prepared as Bats, but certainly not about to leave yourself wide open to attack.

You also can't give too much planning to Batman. It's unfair to assume that the fight will occur in some room that Bats has completely covered with traps. MM is a smart guy and I think that he would be wary of following Bats into traps.

Anyways, IMO MM wins. I think that if Bats had time to get gadgets, MM would have time to realize that Bats would use them and plan a way to neutralize them.

1. Most of the other characters don't have gear already prepared for such contingencies. Batman does. The hour preptime works real well for him.

2. Against Batman, you cannot really tell what he will do with preptime. Even when you safely know what he will target, you don't know how.

3. I'm not assuming traps. I'm assuming carried equipment, that he then sets up on the run, while maintaining stealth ( he can do it ).

4. MM is the only one to stand a chance against Batman. He's the one that thinks most like him. Unfortunately, he also has the most easily exploited weakness of the bunch.

MM might win this fight, but I still give greater odds to Bats.

Karkull

10-30-2001, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by comixboy
BATMAN WINS ALL!!!

Yep.

Tim Drake

10-31-2001, 09:42 AM

Wow. Batman has a lot of support.

metaphysician

10-31-2001, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by Tim Drake
Wow. Batman has a lot of support.

I'm a regular at the Comic Book Rumbles forum, where we discuss various possible battles.

The general opinion there is that Batman, with preptime, beats pretty much anybody who isn't either:

1. a greater deity ( lesser ones are still vulnerable, depending on the world )

2. equally good at preptime use ( which is basically Reed Richards and Dr Doom )

Bird Boy

11-01-2001, 09:04 AM

Basically, I see everybody down and out except the following three:

1)Batman
2)Superman
3)MM

Now then. MM could probably (I hate to say it) take batman out if necessary. Then, MM and supe's would fight...from there...it's anybody's game..

-BB

Eric42

11-01-2001, 12:36 PM

Personally, I think Batman would lose in a match against Superman. While Batman is very resourceful, one screwup and Batman would be hurt. See, Superman is a superpowered guy, while Batman has to use toys to get his job done. Batman would put up a good first, but I don't see him with something like knockout gas made for Kryptonians (after all, Superman is the only Kryptonian that Batman knows of and I'm sure Superman wouldn't let him just start testing knockout gases on him.)

I see Batman trying him best to hide in the shadows but since Superman has X-Ray vision, it doesn't work too well. Batman uses several things against Superman, but Superman either counters or "runs away" from all of them, completely nullifing the attacks. Then it turns into what Batman can't win at, a fist fight that with one solid punch from Superman, Batman is out cold.

Batman could easily beat the Hawkgirl and the wise-cracking Flash. He could even last good with Wonder Women, but only if she messes up badly, which she's more apt to do this early in the series. He couldn't beat Manhunter or Green Lanturn however. GL has the ability to simply null his attacks as well. And Manhunter can simply stay phased out to avoid the attacks. I place Batman at around third place if he doesn't have to face GL and forth if he does.

Kal-el

11-01-2001, 12:50 PM

This is surely an interesting topic to discuss. There are many different variables to consider.
One: Batman is only human. He's at the peak of human endurance, strength, and mental capacity, but nonetheless human. Would not a squarely struck blow from one with superhuman strength (Superman, MM, even WW)render him severly injured or dead?
TWO: Superman's vulnerability to kryptonite. At times it seems this supposedly rare element is in the possession of every criminal and their brother. As long as someone had access to it, Superman would be at a disadvantage. No kryptonite? Either strong mental powers (MM) or considerable magic abilities (to which Supes is vulnerable)would gain an advantage. Pure physicality by any of the JLers could not overcome Supes invulnerability and strength. Also, Supes is able to calculate tactics and probabilities quicker than the most powerful computer. This has to give him some kind of advantage.
THREE: MM vulnerable to fire. This could be used easily against him, especially by one the likes of Batman would is above all in tactical applications . MM's telepathic and shapeshifting abilities are a distinct advantage, and, if used properly, would defeat a less experienced JLer.
FOUR: Can speed be defensed? Sure, Flash is fast and can approach (and exceed, at times I think) the speed of light...a definite advantage. How can this be beneficial? Flash is not particularily strong, nor tactically sound. Can his speed alone be a deciding factor?
FIVE: The Power Ring of GL. This could be the wild card. It seems if used properly, this could defeat any of the JLers. If the imagination is there (and the ring is powered up, of course), who could defeat it? Supes didn't do much against Sinestro in S:TAS, so why would it be any different against GL?
SIX: Desire and anger. This is something that could sway the battle in Supes favor. Whenever he has been taken over by an alien force of some kind (which seems to be getting too often IMO), he has been an extremely destructive force, moreso, I think, than when he is good Supes. Would his anger result in an easy victory over the others? Maybe. Without his values and morals to slow him down, could he be stopped?
Unfortunately, I can't make a definite decision on this. I do think, if Superman was really mad and didn't rely on values and morals, he would win. Otherwise, I'm not too sure...

kid_flash

11-01-2001, 10:33 PM

Wellll, seeing how this is "Justice League Fresh Question #1," I feel obliged to give my opinion.

J'onn wins. Some would say Batman, but that's assuming he takes them down one by one. Batman could be in the middle of beating up Hawkgirl when WAM! Superman punches him, breaking every bone in that area. J'onn can take everyone out with one psi-blast, unless Batman has equipment to block it (which I doubt, 'cause in the animated world Batman's never dealt with a telepath). In that case, Batman uses a short-range and short-life flamethrower, 'cause not even he can carry something powerful enough to kill J'onn. The flame holds J'onn back for a few moments, enough for Batman to do some damage until J'onn regains his strenth (unless he's consistantly exposed to fire, he will regain his strength), and turns invisible. From there, it's Batman guessing where to light a match, until J'onn sends out a psi-blast, killing Batman.

Alternate conclusion: Batman has a major weakness. His parents. We've seen it time and time again. Anytime Batman sees a vision of his parents, he breaks down. A little shapeshifting and mental suggestions, and J'onn would have Batman at his weakest.

LastSonofKrypton

11-02-2001, 09:29 PM

Have to go with Superman. While the previous points about Martian Manhunter's mental abilities are well taken, Superman has one big factor in his favor: superspeed. None of Batman's preplanned gadgets or Martian Manhunter's mental abilites will help them if Superman takes them out before they have a chance to use them. A quick blow to Batman and a blast of heat vision to Martian Manhunter at superspeed and they're down and out.

Now I know what you're thinking- "Yeah, but Flash is faster than Superman!" True, but even if Flash can catch up with Superman, he's not strong enough to do any real damage. Also, Flash is faster, but Superman's endurance is greater. They can race around the world all day and Flash can keep hitting Superman, but Flash will tire first. Then Superman lowers the boom.

Only one I can see who might have a chance to last long enough to possibly beat Superman is Wonder Woman and then only if she can get her magic lasso around him. (Hmm. Tied up by Wonder Woman. Not a bad way to lose a fight.)

Anyway, that's my two cents. And we know what that buys nowadays.

metaphysician

11-02-2001, 09:55 PM

Originally posted by LastSonofKrypton
Have to go with Superman. While the previous points about Martian Manhunter's mental abilities are well taken, Superman has one big factor in his favor: superspeed. None of Batman's preplanned gadgets or Martian Manhunter's mental abilites will help them if Superman takes them out before they have a chance to use them. A quick blow to Batman and a blast of heat vision to Martian Manhunter at superspeed and they're down and out.

Now I know what you're thinking- "Yeah, but Flash is faster than Superman!" True, but even if Flash can catch up with Superman, he's not strong enough to do any real damage. Also, Flash is faster, but Superman's endurance is greater. They can race around the world all day and Flash can keep hitting Superman, but Flash will tire first. Then Superman lowers the boom.

Only one I can see who might have a chance to last long enough to possibly beat Superman is Wonder Woman and then only if she can get her magic lasso around him. (Hmm. Tied up by Wonder Woman. Not a bad way to lose a fight.)

Anyway, that's my two cents. And we know what that buys nowadays.

For starters, MM has superspeed of his own, at least in the comics.

Flash has a LOT of ways to hurt Supes. Vibrating through him, lightspeed punches, relativistic winds, carrying him into other dimensions, you name it.

Last, WW has superspeed of her own, too. She has a very good chance against Supes.

Joe Tully

11-02-2001, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by metaphysician

For starters, MM has superspeed of his own, at least in the comics.

Flash has a LOT of ways to hurt Supes. Vibrating through him, lightspeed punches, relativistic winds, carrying him into other dimensions, you name it.

Also, while I doubt he'll have the power in the cartoon, Flash can steal speed from others in the comics. He could slow down Supes and beat him while Supes is moving like molasses. Not that he necessarily would, but it is possible.

The advantage I also give MM is that he doesn't have to be able to catch an opponent or aim at him properly in order to use telepathy. So while it might be hard to catch up to someone at superspeed, that is not necessary to hurt them with telepathy. Plus, like you say, he has superspeed in the comics. I dunno if that will be removed for the cartoon. It will probably be hard to tell right away since it seems like Supes doesn't use his superspeed much either.

If we are talking about a tournament, I'm having more trouble with Bats making it all the way, since even one hit from the more powerful guys is going to hurt him quite a bit. Remember when Supes hit him in World's Finest? It knocked him into a wall and he had to take a while to get back up. If he was in an out-and-out fight with the others, they wouldn't allow him the time to get back up. If Bane could break Bats, imagine what someone like Supes could do to him if he was uninhibited. :eek:

As always, the preceding has been IMO. :)

redneckgoliath

11-03-2001, 12:42 PM

Wonder Woman, she shedds the armor and the rest of the team is putty in her hands, even Hawkgirl, something funny about that girl.

Tim Drake

11-03-2001, 08:20 PM

About Batman being able to beat Supes......

I can see him having knock out gas for kyrptonians its called kryptonite!!.
In the comics and in the cartoon Batman has kyrptonite just in case he has to stop Superman.

Joe Tully

11-03-2001, 09:50 PM

Yeah but Bats doesnt have it on him all of the time. And if there was time to plan, I'd think that Supes would be smart enough to show up with his radiation suit, since anyone with half a brain would know that Bats would show up with Kryptonite. I guess Bats would expect that too and probably show up with acid or something to try to destroy the suit. But then Supes would probably be wary and try to keep distance using flight, superspeed and heat vision.

metaphysician

11-03-2001, 09:54 PM

Originally posted by Joe Tully
Yeah but Bats doesnt have it on him all of the time. And if there was time to plan, I'd think that Supes would be smart enough to show up with his radiation suit, since anyone with half a brain would know that Bats would show up with Kryptonite.

Except now, all Batman has to damage is his radiation suit. Besides, there ARE other attack options:

-sensory overload ( a personal favorite of mine )

-tailored drugs ( Batman could certainly come up with some drugs designed specifically for Kryptonians )

-heavy artillery ( possibly in the form of the Batwing, not the most effective option, however )

-enchanted projectiles of some kind ( sure, Bats can't do it himself, but I'm sure he could find someone who could, or someone who would sell them )

Joe Tully

11-03-2001, 10:44 PM

Well, I answered the "suit damage" thing above. I just want to reply to say I think that using enchanted projectiles counts too much as "outside help."

To play devil's advocate: If Batman gets to use his vast resources to develop drugs (I dunno how he'd test these drugs without a subject) and bring in artillery and so on, does Supes get to call in all of his favors and use suits made by Steel and so on? What keeps Supes from just stealing an H-bomb and dropping it on Gotham? Bats doesn't develop all of those gadgets and so on by himself. I guess what I'm saying is: Let's allow Bats to use some ability to plan, just like he does if he's fighting any other opponent, but let's not go overboard. Limit the resources reasonably. I think something like an acid gun to dissolve the suit isn't too unbelievable. It could be easily carried and fit on Bats like a backpack. Massive artillery (tanks or lots of cannons or whatever) is a little out there, and if Bats were to try flying the Batwing he would not be too happy. That thing is just one big target for Supes.

LastSonofKrypton

11-06-2001, 05:50 PM

A lot of your points are very good ones. Part of the problem is that we don't know exactly what powers or just how powerful any of the characters are supposed to be in the cartoon.

I believe (and don't quote me on this because for the life of me I couldn't tell you the source) it's been said in some of the "regular continuity" (i.e. non-animated) Superman comics that Superman's mind is so powerful that he can withstand MM's mental attacks. On the other hand, some of the JLA comic book writers have shown it ain't so in that book. I guess a lot of it (like much in life) depends on who's telling the story.

Also, while MM has telepathy, Superman has heat vision. I'm no Einsteinian physicist, but it seems to me that heat vision (i.e. light) travels at least as fast as thought, even when you're not in a vacuum. As far as Superman not using his superspeed, they've explained in Superman Adventures that he doesn't want to injure anybody as a result of using it. (The old "straw in a hurricane" story.) IMO, I think it's usually just a matter of bad writing. At any rate, if we're talking free-for-all no-holds-barred I think you have to take the superspeed into account.

While Wonder Woman has superspeed, superstrength, etc. and thus a respectable chance to beat Superman, the Powers That Be at DC have pretty much established that Superman is the strongest, most invulnerable to physical injury, and, next to the Flash and other Flash-types, the fastest. Whether this carries over into the cartoon, I don't know.

Same with the Flash. I don't know how many of his more fantastic powers from the comics will carry over into the cartoon. Not many I suspect. At the same time, I agree that I would have to reevaluate my position regarding Flash's chance to take down any of the other members. I would now rank him much more likely to do so.

All told, I still think that most of the time Superman would come out on top, but I can certainly envision Wonder Woman, Flash, or Martian Manhunter being the last one standing.

Joker Jr

11-07-2001, 03:31 PM

My heart says Bats but my mind says MM. I just don't think that any of the jl can stand up to his mental attacks, even Supes.:) :D :p :mad: :eek: :cool: :rolleyes:
Also I like smiles.

Joe Tully

11-07-2001, 05:31 PM

Originally posted by LastSonofKrypton

Also, while MM has telepathy, Superman has heat vision. I'm no Einsteinian physicist, but it seems to me that heat vision (i.e. light) travels at least as fast as thought, even when you're not in a vacuum. As far as Superman not using his superspeed, they've explained in Superman Adventures that he doesn't want to injure anybody as a result of using it. (The old "straw in a hurricane" story.) IMO, I think it's usually just a matter of bad writing. At any rate, if we're talking free-for-all no-holds-barred I think you have to take the superspeed into account.

One small point: Supes has to think "shoot eye beams" and then fire his heat vision, which has to travel to the target. MM has to think "mental attack" and then the target is hurt, and I think that there is no "travel time." So...

Supes attack=heat vision time + thought to activate vision time
MM attack=thought of mental attack time

But the idea of heat vision does certainly improve Supes's odds to me. I am not sure if MM is weak to heat as well as fire, but if Supes fired the heat vision at high enough intensity it would be hot enough to start at least a small fire or a few sparks on MM.

Ugh, I'm a dork. :p

And I'm still waiting for MH to say "The Death Star"

LastSonofKrypton

11-07-2001, 08:23 PM

Originally posted by Joe Tully

...
But the idea of heat vision does certainly improve Supes's odds to me. I am not sure if MM is weak to heat as well as fire, but if Supes fired the heat vision at high enough intensity it would be hot enough to start at least a small fire or a few sparks on MM.

Ugh, I'm a dork. :p

In answer to your question about MM's susceptibility to heat-

From forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10628 (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10628) :

J'Onn J'Onzz is the last survivor of an ancient Martian race. He is a telepath who can use his uncanny shape-shifting abilities to adapt and blend into any situation. By altering his physical density, he can also become immaterial and pass through solid objects. Because he comes from a cold barren planet, exposure to intense heat can weaken him.

And hey, as far as being a dork, at least here you're among your own kind. :D