Angel vs. Angelus: Closer than we thought?

[Fone Bone]

Much debate has been made over the reasons Spike chose to get his soul back. I personally believe he did it to make penance for hurting Buffy while some believe it was a selfish act to be with her. We've debated this over and over and haven't been able to come to a satisfactory conclusion in my mind. Now I would like turn our attention to Angel/Angelus.

Are Angel and Angelus facets of the same person? Frankly, we seen elements that could make it go either way. The facts that they are completely different people are:

1. Angel is always careful to seperate himself from Angelus. He uses his former name in the past tense and talks about himself as Angelus in the third person (just like Elmo!). He doesn't do this when talking to Spike but with Wesley, Gunn, Fred, Lorne, and ESPECIALLY Cordelia he makes an effort to distinguish himself from his alter ego.

2. Angelus does things that Angel would NEVER do. One of the reasons he does things is to hurt Angel by torturing the people he was closest to. The fact that Angel helps people and saves puppies and goes to Manilow concerts angers Angelus to no end. While Angel may have reason to deny he and Angelus are the same Angelus does not. But he seperates himself from Angel anyways even though he is always there, just beneath the surface.

3. Nothing on Buffy or Angel has definatively proven in my mind that vampire and human are the same person. In fact on Buffy in "The Harvest" Giles tells Xander when about to confront his vamped friend Jesse that "You'll not be looking at your friend. You'll be looking at the thing that killed him." Granted Giles isn't a vampire so I don't know how he can know for sure, but if any human can understand the subtleties of human and demon it would be him.

Now let's look at the evidence that they are one and the same:

1. EVERY major vampire we've seen is almost exactly like their souled version, only evil. Drusilla has a level of madness and innocence that she always possessed. Spike, despite his radical shift from William the Bloody Awful Poet is pretty much the same character as evil Spike after his soul was restored (especially in Season Five of Angel). Harmony has always been vacuous and vain even before she was vamped. When Wolfram and Hart raised Darla back from the dead, we didn't even know she came back HUMAN until she walked into the sunlight five episodes later. The audience had NO way of knowing she had a soul and that big reveal was quite a shock considering her behavior was exactly the same as evil Darla.

2. Spike and Buffy. IF Spike was a completely different person something doesn't jibe. Demon Spike was completely in love with Buffy. IF he and William were different people why would his love for her spill over to souled Spike? If they were different why should souled Spike give a rat's behind what happens to Buffy? Why would he still love her? That said the vampire rules that apply to Spike would also apply to Angel. Like Buffy and Willow's conversation in "Passion":

Buffy: "I just can't believe it's the same person. Everything he does is different."

Willow: "Except... The only thing he thinks about is you..."

3. Vampires tend to exibit their human's faults to a radical degree. William was a fool for love and so was Spike. Darla was self-centered and so was her evil version. Harmony was cruel and being a vampire gave her an outlet for it. We can't really speak of Drusilla because we don't have enough information on her pre-vamp. But if she was already insane, Evil Dru took it to the next level.

Now let's look at Liam. As the First as Jenny Calendar noted he was a "drunken, whoring layabout". He was a complete hedonist and his biggest vice was vice. He took joy in pleasuring himself to the Nth degree. So does Angelus. But the thing he took most pleasure in was torturing his victims in creative and ghastly ways. It was an art to him. I think the reason Angel feels so guilty about his actions as Angelus is that if he didn't have such an addictive nature pre-vamp he wouldn't have become as much of a monster. His notable jealously and anger at Spike comes from the fact that Spike was able to make peace with what he had done. He felt that was just the way vampires acted and took no more joy out of it than any other vampire. But Angelus enjoyed it so much he finds it hard to separate his two sides and makes up for it by referring to himself as two different people. Except with Spike. He knows that nonsense would never fly with him because he's been there. He knows exactly who Angel and Angelus are and is not too big a person to not rub it in. Spike may be able to seperate his twin natures but Angel cannot. That is why the Gypsy's curse was even more brilliant than they could have ever imagined.

Frankly, I wish that Angel would Shanshu. Spike may deserve it in the sense that he became a champion a year after being reensouled while it took Angel a century, but really Angel needs it more. He can never be at peace with himself as long as Angelus is still under the surface. Frankly, I think Spike LIKES being a vampire with a soul and wouldn't trade it for anything. It makes him special and he has already made peace with himself. I hope Angel signing away the Prophecy in "Not Fade Away" doesn't stick. If not Angel will never have true happiness.

[MAXIMUS]

Don't wanna sound rude or be a jerk but there's been a lot of Angel thread's lately and I'm sure non -fans are starting to get a bit turned off, so why doesn't someone (ie Storm) start that general Discussion thread so we can clean up the thoughts and discussions and not make other feels unwanted. Once again, I love tese threads and the great ideas that come out of them, it's just not fair to people who don't, I could be wrong but a General Discussion Thread would be great and many many many pages long ;)

Oh and I always liked the idea that Angelus was always deep down inside him in agony over what Angel is doing with the great muderous career he once had, and probably vice versa. And if you think about it, when Angel turned to Angelus, it was so much easier for the group because they knew he was evil. IF any of the group ever turned evil they would have no way of knowing it. Angelus was just so much simpler.

[Failure]

Don't wanna sound rude or be a jerk but there's been a lot of Angel thread's lately and I'm sure non -fans are starting to get a bit turned off, so why doesn't someone (ie Storm) start that general Discussion thread so we can clean up the thoughts and discussions and not make other feels unwanted. Once again, I love tese threads and the great ideas that come out of them, it's just not fair to people who don't, I could be wrong but a General Discussion Thread would be great and many many many pages long ;)

Nah, that's not necessary. Between the 17 WWE and Power Rangers threads that pop up every single week, I think we'll let Angel fans have their cake. There's a lot of interesting points that can be debated at this point. Eventually the interest will fade, but for now we'll let the fans enjoy or wallow in the afterglow.

[James]

The way I see it, human and vampire have to at some level have some connection in the Vampire body. If not, Angel wouldn't need redemption - he would be absolved of any responsibility.

I see Vampires as amoral. They don't seem to have a massive lust to support Evil unless it benefits them. Their need to drink blood makes them dangerous. That, like an addiction, can make them predictable and more evil than they actually are. Take the killing away (SPIKE) they are just as amoral, but not half as dangerous.

As for the soul, I think the darker potential in the human soul, the nastier the Vampire. Look at Angelus. Liam had a lot of issues, could be they ran deeper than they imagined. Being sired creates a Vampire based on those primal and base characteristics. Look at Spike. William seemed a nicer guy than Spike. His vampire wasn't half as bad, and if he hadn't been under Angelus, might have been even less amoral than he actually was. Even Willow - vamp version.. pretty nasty.. we see in Season 6 she is particually bad when she lets out her primal urges.

So that would explain Angel's need to redeem. He knows that the Angelus Vampire, while not Liam, is based on Liams more basic primitive being. In essense, Angelus couldn't be bad without Liam. That would make sense.

So yeah, I think Angel is far removed from Angelus, but also maybe from Liam. With a burden like that, you are bound to become and entirely different person. While assessing Angel, I think you need to look at those three different characters, Angel, Angelus, Liam. All have the same primal template. This makes all intense potentually dark and obsessive characters, but the mix of soul and experience makes each very different.

[Hurricane V1]

I've only watched a handful of Angel episodes, most being this recent season. There's something I don't understand about modern vampire entertainment. Just what is a soul? I always thought it to be emotions and personality. How do vampires appear to be full of emotion when they're supposed to be without souls? I'm talking about Dracula getting frustrated with Van Hellsing destroying his babies, Spike having feelings for Buffy, the vampires from Underworld feeling pride in their race, etc....

[Ruffian]

I've always thought of Angel and Angelus as two separate entities derived from the same source: Liam. Angelus is Liam's dark side personified while Angel is Liam transformed after knowing true evil and rejecting it.

I do think Liam was capable of evil being in a bad place for himself as a human, and that had something to do with Angelus being such a badass. Not only that, Liam is a good for nothing because that was how he was raised to believe of himself. I'm sure that disgusted Angelus and fueled his desire to show the world his potential, mainly the power he now possessed. I also think Angelus sees Angel and Liam as the same person, pathetic and weak, capable of great evil but never giving in to it completely.

However, I also believe Liam was capable of good because of his big turnaround in becoming Angel. He had that impulse to do what's right, except he didn't know how and just kept running away instead. So it makes sense that it takes him a century to figure it all out, and a helping hand to make him see his potential. After that he made his decision, and that moment showed what kind of person he's capable of becoming.


I've only watched a handful of Angel episodes, most being this recent season. There's something I don't understand about modern vampire entertainment. Just what is a soul? I always thought it to be emotions and personality. How do vampires appear to be full of emotion when they're supposed to be without souls? I'm talking about Dracula getting frustrated with Van Hellsing destroying his babies, Spike having feelings for Buffy, the vampires from Underworld feeling pride in their race, etc....As far as the Buffyverse is concerned, I always saw the soul as the individual's humanity, which compels them to do the right thing and makes them feel guilty when they don't. Vampires don't have that guilt (except maybe Spike as some may argue...), and even people who don't have a soul on the series don't feel guilt (re: Angel S1 - I've Got You Under My Skin). The question about the soul was never dealt in Underworld, although their vampire mythology is pretty different from the traditional horror movies in which they have a scientific reasoning for immortality instead of supernatural.

[creeper]

To me, Angel is just a psychosis based around the guilt Angelus feels for the people he murdered. I think the strain of having a soul, losing the soul, and getting it back again is what caused this psychosis. When Angel met Buffy he was simply Angelus with a soul. When he lost his soul post vampirization, due to him and Buffy's romp he simply went back to "his old ways". When he received his soul again once again he was consumed with guilt; furthermore, he was torn with the new crimes he commited. It's only fair to say, that this strain caused him to see Angelus as a different entity all together.

The reason there is no difference between Spike pre-soul and Spike re-souled is because of three reasons. One reason would be because Spike accepts what he did; therefore, he does not need to disassociate from his alter ego. Next reason would be, Spike is not cursed, therefore there is no torment that is really forced on him. Lastly is the most important reason, Buffy. She asked Spike to be his old self. I think that last reason bring Spike a lot closer to his vampire nature. Therefore the demon is satisfied it gets to engage in violence and still do it in the name of good; thus, Spike is whole.

Going back to Angelus. When Angel lost his soul again during the Beast arc, I believe that Angelus had now become an extreme. Since Angel had been repressing so long every evil emotion came rushing to the surface. Angelus had now officially become Angel's evil half. So much so that even in Angel's mind he can do battle with him.

But in conclusion, Angel is Angelus whether he admits it or not. That is why he suffers. For crimes he commited not someone else.

[Fone Bone]

If Angel and Angelus ARE the same person do you ever wish either Spike or Cordelia would have called him on it? Spike came close in some of the early episodes of the fifth season, mainly while bickering with Angel while he was a ghost. But every time he came close to twisting the knife he faded out. It was extremely frustrating since they've never come back to the issue since he and Angel battled for the Cup of Perpetual Torment. I would have especially liked to have seen this in "The Girl in Question" but, alas, practically EVERYTHING in that episode was mishandled. (From making Buffy so unbelievably shallow to making Angelus the butt of too many jokes.) If there is a movie or mini-series I seriously doubt this is going to get resolved. What do you guys think?

[James]

If Angel and Angelus ARE the same person do you ever wish either Spike or Cordelia would have called him on it? Spike came close in some of the early episodes of the fifth season, mainly while bickering with Angel while he was a ghost. But every time he came close to twisting the knife he faded out. It was extremely frustrating since they've never come back to the issue since he and Angel battled for the Cup of Perpetual Torment. I would have especially liked to have seen this in "The Girl in Question" but, alas, practically EVERYTHING in that episode was mishandled.

[QUOTE=Fone Bone](From making Buffy so unbelievably shallow to making Angelus the butt of too many jokes.)
Why is it than a girl can't move on and have a life, and yet a guy can. Angel has slept with 2 girls this season and had a romantic finale with another. Buffy is involved with one other character and be declared "shallow"..

Buffy is like so many girls I know who are young adults. They do self reflect too much, do get too personal. I called her shallow in one thread, but when speaking to Storm I realised that was perhaps a poor adjective. I don't think "Girl in Question" offers enough information about Buffy to judge. From what is said in the season, she is a busy girl who has moved from being self indulgent and self pitying to continuing her cause in locating and training slayers. Like most women these days, they can choose the life they wish, and date who they want and when they want. It bugs me when people deride Buffy for just being a person and not paying enough attention to wannbe stalkers Angel and Spike.

As for Angel and Angelus being the same person.... I don't know. The speak of each other very seperately. In fact as two ids. Angelus says he is aware of every action Angel commits to. At the same time there has to be of a link between Liam and Angel for Angel to be ashamed of the crimes Angelus has done. I would have agreed that Angel is an extension of Angelus, if it wasn't that the gypsies (as I recall) RETURNED part of his soul. Part of that what makes the character Liam. The part that the Vampire demon took away. Whatever that part it is, it's returned in Angel.



Spike may deserve it in the sense that he became a champion a year after being reensouled while it took Angel a century, but really Angel needs it more.

Again your logic escapes me. Spike finds being a champion easier because he doesn't care about the people he hurt. In fact, the only time he starts is in "Damage". That's a big difference. People look at Spike as being this amazing World Champion. Spike does it as if it's a job - a goal. Something to prove. He doesn't haggle with his past because it doesn't affect him. You can't say that makes him more worthy than Angel.

Watch season 5 again, you'll notice that a lot of Spike's actions are to prove himself. When he goes for the cup, the show explictly points out it's more to do with taking something from Angel than something he needs. He's happy being a Vampire. He wants the prophecy of proof that his the hero - and that's not Angel.

He's not overly interested in the people, just in doing the job well. He does occasionally show signs of purely good behaviour - as when he put his hand up to fight along side Angel. At that point it didn't seem to be because he wanted to for fun or for his own benefit, but for one of the first times, it seemed it was because he knew this was precisely what being a champion was.

In the end, I think the point worth hammering home is that Spike has a different issue with his soul. There is no implication that I recall, that Spike is given back William's soul. Angel got Liam's back and thereby suffered as Liam would for his acts. Spike seems to be Spike the demon with a small conscience. It doesn't seem to really be William, it seems to be Spike.

Personally I think William would have truely suffered if given back a soul. Just as Darla and Angel did. He was that sort of character. The fact he didn't implies it was hardened Spike that was given the gift of having a soul - the gift of having a conscience.

So again, I think comparisons between Spike and Soul Spike to Angel/Angelus are very hard to resolve.

[creeper]

Why is it than a girl can't move on and have a life, and yet a guy can. Angel has slept with 2 girls this season and had a romantic finale with another. Buffy is involved with one other character and be declared "shallow"..

Buffy is like so many girls I know who are young adults. They do self reflect too much, do get too personal. I called her shallow in one thread, but when speaking to Storm I realised that was perhaps a poor adjective. I don't think "Girl in Question" offers enough information about Buffy to judge. From what is said in the season, she is a busy girl who has moved from being self indulgent and self pitying to continuing her cause in locating and training slayers. Like most women these days, they can choose the life they wish, and date who they want and when they want. It bugs me when people deride Buffy for just being a person and not paying enough attention to wannbe stalkers Angel and Spike.

As for Angel and Angelus being the same person.... I don't know. The speak of each other very seperately. In fact as two ids. Angelus says he is aware of every action Angel commits to. At the same time there has to be of a link between Liam and Angel for Angel to be ashamed of the crimes Angelus has done. I would have agreed that Angel is an extension of Angelus, if it wasn't that the gypsies (as I recall) RETURNED part of his soul. Part of that what makes the character Liam. The part that the Vampire demon took away. Whatever that part it is, it's returned in Angel.


Again your logic escapes me. Spike finds being a champion easier because he doesn't care about the people he hurt. In fact, the only time he starts is in "Damage". That's a big difference. People look at Spike as being this amazing World Champion. Spike does it as if it's a job - a goal. Something to prove. He doesn't haggle with his past because it doesn't affect him. You can't say that makes him more worthy than Angel.

Watch season 5 again, you'll notice that a lot of Spike's actions are to prove himself. When he goes for the cup, the show explictly points out it's more to do with taking something from Angel than something he needs. He's happy being a Vampire. He wants the prophecy of proof that his the hero - and that's not Angel.

He's not overly interested in the people, just in doing the job well. He does occasionally show signs of purely good behaviour - as when he put his hand up to fight along side Angel. At that point it didn't seem to be because he wanted to for fun or for his own benefit, but for one of the first times, it seemed it was because he knew this was precisely what being a champion was.

In the end, I think the point worth hammering home is that Spike has a different issue with his soul. There is no implication that I recall, that Spike is given back William's soul. Angel got Liam's back and thereby suffered as Liam would for his acts. Spike seems to be Spike the demon with a small conscience. It doesn't seem to really be William, it seems to be Spike.

Personally I think William would have truely suffered if given back a soul. Just as Darla and Angel did. He was that sort of character. The fact he didn't implies it was hardened Spike that was given the gift of having a soul - the gift of having a conscience.

So again, I think comparisons between Spike and Soul Spike to Angel/Angelus are very hard to resolve.I think i'll take a break from Drunken Master to address Spike being reensouled. I think Spike going back to being his old persona is more Buffy's fault than his. She is the one that made it clear to Spike he was doing no good as Angel wannabe Spike. In fact he had started to become a liability. I think in the begining he tried to do it Angel's way, and stuff and he ended up holding back too much. I think if it hadn't been for Buffy's speech he'd have ended up more as William than Spike. About the suffering, he was suffering but it was Buffy again that brought him out of it.

Back to drunken master

[James]

Hmm Creeper, I think you give Buffy more credit than she deserves. Not meaning that to be a comment against Buffy, but simply Spike's ordeal is something no one could really help with.. if he had been returned to William.

Empathically, it would take more than a speech from even someone you care to remove any true conscience that would prevail over such a long period of pillage and death. That's what inclines me to think that this souled Spike is the non human Spike with a conscience. The consicence will give him an idea of good or bad, but if you aren't a being who originally was bothered with such morality, the adjustment will be far less painful that it would be for an element.

Considering how bad Angel felt when he had some soul return. Consider Darla also. Look at Spike.. William was a very sensitive man. It would take more than Buffy to pull you out of such a burden of guilt as he would have had if he'd had William's full soul returned. That sort of guilt no one can talk you out of. Therefore, I assume this is the mix that makes Vampire Spike now embodied with a soul, rather than a return to William.

I think if it hadn't been for Buffy's speech he'd have ended up more as William than Spike. About the suffering, he was suffering but it was Buffy again that brought him out of it.

I think the characteristic of William compare to Spike shows that Spike did not suffer the same soulship as Angel. I think that's worth baring in mind when assessing Angel/Angelus.

[Fone Bone]

Why is it than a girl can't move on and have a life, and yet a guy can. Angel has slept with 2 girls this season and had a romantic finale with another. Buffy is involved with one other character and be declared "shallow"..

Buffy is like so many girls I know who are young adults. They do self reflect too much, do get too personal. I called her shallow in one thread, but when speaking to Storm I realised that was perhaps a poor adjective. I don't think "Girl in Question" offers enough information about Buffy to judge. From what is said in the season, she is a busy girl who has moved from being self indulgent and self pitying to continuing her cause in locating and training slayers. Like most women these days, they can choose the life they wish, and date who they want and when they want. It bugs me when people deride Buffy for just being a person and not paying enough attention to wannbe stalkers Angel and Spike.

As for Angel and Angelus being the same person.... I don't know. The speak of each other very seperately. In fact as two ids. Angelus says he is aware of every action Angel commits to. At the same time there has to be of a link between Liam and Angel for Angel to be ashamed of the crimes Angelus has done. I would have agreed that Angel is an extension of Angelus, if it wasn't that the gypsies (as I recall) RETURNED part of his soul. Part of that what makes the character Liam. The part that the Vampire demon took away. Whatever that part it is, it's returned in Angel.


Again your logic escapes me. Spike finds being a champion easier because he doesn't care about the people he hurt. In fact, the only time he starts is in "Damage". That's a big difference. People look at Spike as being this amazing World Champion. Spike does it as if it's a job - a goal. Something to prove. He doesn't haggle with his past because it doesn't affect him. You can't say that makes him more worthy than Angel.

Watch season 5 again, you'll notice that a lot of Spike's actions are to prove himself. When he goes for the cup, the show explictly points out it's more to do with taking something from Angel than something he needs. He's happy being a Vampire. He wants the prophecy of proof that his the hero - and that's not Angel.

He's not overly interested in the people, just in doing the job well. He does occasionally show signs of purely good behaviour - as when he put his hand up to fight along side Angel. At that point it didn't seem to be because he wanted to for fun or for his own benefit, but for one of the first times, it seemed it was because he knew this was precisely what being a champion was.

In the end, I think the point worth hammering home is that Spike has a different issue with his soul. There is no implication that I recall, that Spike is given back William's soul. Angel got Liam's back and thereby suffered as Liam would for his acts. Spike seems to be Spike the demon with a small conscience. It doesn't seem to really be William, it seems to be Spike.

Personally I think William would have truely suffered if given back a soul. Just as Darla and Angel did. He was that sort of character. The fact he didn't implies it was hardened Spike that was given the gift of having a soul - the gift of having a conscience.

So again, I think comparisons between Spike and Soul Spike to Angel/Angelus are very hard to resolve.
No no no no no. You're misreading why I called Buffy's behavior shallow. I would have no problem if she moved on to a guy like Riley, someone to give her the normalcy she craves. That would have shown growth in her character, that she finally stopped torturing herself and let herself be happy again. My beef was that she moved on to another immortal monstery guy. It seemed to negate her relationships with both Angel and Spike and made her motivation for being with either of them shallow. It could be argued that her relationship with Angel WAS shallow to an extent, but that really doesn't give my favorite Buffy/Angel episode (Amends) much credit for deepening their relationship. Buffy and Spike's relationship seemed even deeper, first with evil Spike because he had gone through what she had then souled Spike who had seen Buffy at her worst and still loved and accepted her. No, "The Girl in Question" made Spike's witless assesment in "Into the Woods" that "Buffy likes a little monster in her man" true. That is a shallow character trait that I wish Buffy had never become rightfully asscociated with.

Actually, Angel starting a relationship with Nina (and Cordelia for that matter) was just as shallow.

I don't know about Spike not caring about the people he hurt. He's just had an easier time making peace with it because he didn't enjoy it any more than any other vampire. Angel enjoyed it so much and had made an art form out of it that he can't help but feel more guilt. The episode with the psychotic slayer this year, I don't know it's name, showed that Spike never thought much of the true nature of evil. It should be noted that He also said he didn't look back at the victims (which is a crock considering he went insane early in Buffy season seven.) I think Spike was merely trying to distinguish himself from Angel subconciously. This makes Angel a deeper character than Spike, but not nessecarily more heroic.

Was Spike a champion to prove something? I dunno, I agree he wanted the Cup only to punish Angel but if he LIKES being a vampire with a soul why would he need to prove anything now that Buffy wasn't around? Heck when Lindsay started guiding him ANGEL wasn't even around. Did he really have ANYTHING to prove?

I will agree with you on something. The second to last episode and "Not Fade Away" proved that both Angel AND Spike weren't in it for the big reward (at least not anymore.) That's character growth.:)