Angel "The Girl in Question" Talkback

[Robin2099]

http://epguides.com/Angel/cast.jpg

Well this is a sad time for all of us Buffy and Angel fans since this is the third to last episode of Angel to air. Here's the official synopsis from the WB's web page: :"Angel and Spike travel to Rome with plans to rescue Buffy from their old enemy the Immortal. While in Italy, they also attempt to retrieve the head of a fallen demon leader to prevent a perilous power struggle between several warring demon clans."(note Sarah Michelle Gellar is not in this episode). Let the talkback begin and thanks to Fone Bone and Maximus for letting me do this week's talkback. Much appreciated.

[Storm]

Sarah Michelle Gellar is not in this episode
:(


I'm still in denial. Half of me is still hoping that SMG will appear in the finale episode as a big "Fooled You All" gag.


- Storm

[MAXIMUS]

Dude you forgot the poll. We need an Op stat. Oh and try and center the images, has The Penguin taught us nothing. I think tonights ep will be mostly filler resolution stuff.

[The Penguin]

Dude you forgot the poll. We need an Op stat. Oh and try and center the images, has The Penguin taught us nothing.Well I added the poll, but you all still have much to learn of the living Force. :p MAXIMUS might be ready to face the trials though. ;)

[MAXIMUS]

Still an apprentice but hoping to become a Knight ;)

[creeper]

dissapointing ep. Could have done without it. Nuff said.

[Patrick Bateman]

I liked the ep quite a bit. I think the "Get over Buffy and move on" wasn't just meant for Angel and Spike, but was also a little wink to the fans that the days of Buffy the Vampire Slayer are over, and that we should be more concerned now with Angel and his cast of characters.

Great comedy in this ep, with many quotable lines. My favorite parts had to be Angel and Spike reminiscing about earlier seasons of BTVS, Spike ranting about his coat, and Angel's Power Ranger jacket at the end.:D

[Adam Tyner]

dissapointing ep. Could have done without it. Nuff said.

Worthless. So much to resolve and so few episodes in which to do it, and this was a complete waste of time. I liked the past blatant comedic-diversion episode with Numero Cinco, but...wow. This was bafflingly awful. Failed on every level. It's great to see Amy Acker without all the makeup again, though. :swoons:

[Dan Turpin]

This felt more like a filler rather than a plot development episode. I think the 2 main reasons this was shown is because

A. Seeing that Illariya can look however she wants to a certain degree

B. A possible lead-in for a Buffy cameo, but sources still say no

Although, seeing Angel in the racing jacket did make for good tv

Gets 3*'s from me

[Fone Bone]

Wow, I was constantly surprised throughout this episode at how much it sucked. Yes, the Angel and Spike pettines was cute but other than that it was awful and did a great disservice to the characters. Lesse:

Buffy was portrayed as a complete flake for hooking up with another undead guy. Basically her relationships with both Angel AND Spike were made meaningless by her faddish obsession with monsteriffic boy-toys. And they thought they were special. Sadly this was actually in character with how shallow Buffy had become in Buffy seasons six and seven. Kind of makes me glad Buffy's off the air so we don't have to put up with her weekly epiphanies.

Spike got the short end of the stick in this episode. He dies saving her and the world and less than a year later she moves onto his mortal enemy? It didn't help that we never saw the Immortal so we couldn't possibly conceive what she saw in him. Ick.

And Angel. ANGEL! I have a feeling this was all just a plot device to get him and Nina into bed next week judging by the preview. And how lame was it that we got NO resolution on Angel sacrificing that pregnant lady last week? One mention and we're off to Italy? Please.

Andrew was sadly wasted this episode as well. I was bummed that he had such an unimportant role. I have a feeling he was just there to toss the fans a bone since both Sarah Michelle Gellar and Michelle Trachtenberg wrere no-shows. I'm sad his likely last appearance was so unmemorable.

Darla and Drusilla were wasted too. After all we've been through with Darla on Angel the Series it was insulting that her final appearance would be as a joke to humiliate Angel and Spike. Drusilla has often shown up for no good reason but Darla being used as a cheap joke saddened me especially because of her sacrifice for Connor and her subsequence connection to The-Powers-That-Be.

The sub-plot with Illyria and Fred's parents stunk too. I was getting ready for some Joss Whedon knife-twisting and Fred's parents never find out she died. The only reason they did this was to cause Wesley even more pain. Hasn't the guy been through enough?

I disliked this episode greatly. *1/2.

[Damien]

The episode was okay. Cool for a standard episode, but not something I want to see placed in the final 3.
I wish Buffy was never even mentioned, no matter what the placement of this episode. I mean, not because I hate Buffy (I still do), but because she hasn't really been mentioned at all on this show. I mean, she really hasn't been a big part of Angel's life, or much of an impact on the adventures of Angel and the gang. She's not something we see Angel brooding over, or crying about at his corporate window. I just...I couldn't feel for him when it came to not having Buffy. I was just, "Who cares? So what? Buffy who? What about that hot Italian woman at Rome's W&H?"

[Master Moron]

I agree that this episode was awful. The only good parts were the parts with Ilyria. Also, Andrew's appearance made no sense. I thought he didn't like Angel and thought that he was the bad guy? Why was he acting all friendly?

Another plothole, wouldn't Buffy have noticed the commotion in the bar that Angel and Spike were having?

Also, the whole episode was building up to them kicking the immortals ass and it never came. I didn't want them to kill the immortal because he was dating Buffy. I wanted them to kill him because he's an arrogant SOB.

[MAXIMUS]

Actually the Immortal could have been a nice guy, just because he didn't like Spike and Angel , who did used to be evil, doesn't make him that bad.

This ep was such a filler, the comedy stuff was okay, the story was bunk and the Ilyria/ Wes stuff was pretty good. You can kind of see that Wes has a sort of control over her.

This didn't really resolve much except that Angel and Spike don't really hate being around another. The Apocalypse count they had together was pretty funny too. **1/2 stars.

[James]

I liked it, and because of the untimely demise of the show, I can forgive the lightheartedness of the episode - I'm sure they had little time to change things.

I agree this was a partial attempt to remind fans to leave off Buffy, while play a little more with the guys feelings.

I think think this was also an attempt to really have fun with the Angel/Spike dynamic.. such a shame they didn't get the renewal - they were great..

I loved some of the gags.. ah the Italians and their jackets and mopeds.. in my experience they do LOVE their mopeds, and their style - from a Brit perspective - isn't what I would call quality.. :p

The Wes story went, well, no where.. I half expected that Wes would blow her cover just as the parents were leaving and I suppose I was slightly disappointed they didn't - and little else happened also...

Great shame about Spike's Jacket.. couldn't W&H just repaired it with a spell - it's trademark!

My major grumble would be the tone of the flashbacks. Spike and Angel may be goofballs, but Spike and Angelus never struck me that way.. I know it was to add to the eps flavour but it just sort of fell short and felt a little pointless....

Overall, a fun episode for finals week. Made me laugh and I needed that! But as an episode on the whole, it felt sort of empty.. no Immortal, no Buffy, and too silly with little structure.. fun and light, but ultimately a little unfinished..

Nice to see Andrew one last time also. I loved the "is Angel crying scene"...

[halinar]

I enjoyed the episode for all the comedy but it just felt weird that there are only 2 more left and none of the big plot points are being wrapped out. Well I'm not in charge so I'll just have to tune in next week.

RIP - Slayer Jacket

[Morac]

I liked how Andrew was wearing a Strongbad (http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail.html) shirt. It fit nicely since he referenced Trogdor in the Buffy finale.

[Damien]

I liked how Andrew was wearing a Strongbad (http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail.html) shirt. It fit nicely since he referenced Trogdor in the Buffy finale.That was Andrew, wasn't it? Yeah, I saw that and just went, "That's cool. I think Willow mentioned Trogdor on Buffy. Joss must be a fan."
Yeah, not a Buffy fan, I was totally lost on who that guy was, anyway.

[James]

That was Andrew, wasn't it? Yeah, I saw that and just went, "That's cool. I think Willow mentioned Trogdor on Buffy. Joss must be a fan."
Yeah, not a Buffy fan, I was totally lost on who that guy was, anyway.

Yeah, don't be fooled by the new hairstyle, that was Andrew... the remaining geek! *sniff*

Great to see him again!

[True Noir]

Great ep. The only thing that pissed me off was how they used a fake Buffy at the club and didn't show a face and only showed flying hair.

I thought this was a pretty funny ep. The part where Angel got on the back of the bike with Spike was a kodak moment.

This seriously gets me wondering though. What does Joss have planned for the last two ep?

[Storm]

I hate to say it but I told you so. Actually I don't hate to say it. Lets cut to the chase... this episode was forced. It was the end of the series and Joss knew that he had to settle to triangle once and for all and this is how he does it? They milked the Buffy character for a plot device and for what? To make her out like a flake. I actually GLAD that Sarah Michelle Gellar did not appear in this episode. I don't blame the Buffy character - I blame the writers. They did not do her justice. They even made Buffy's cookie dough speech to Angel meaningless. How could they do that? I thought Buffy sleeping around with Spike was low but this was just really out of character and she wouldn't move on that fast and not with another vampire. In the real world "The Girl in Question" would have been great. In the real world Sarah would have appeared and the character Buffy would have been able to defend her and not Andrew, who was an utter waste by the way... although I'm glad he finally got the girl(s). The only best thing about this episode was seeing my lovely perky Fred again. I just feel bad for her parents not knowing that their daughter was dead. Very bittersweet. Also, I liked Angel and Spike going through past events in Buffy history. The comedy was good but how they wasted Buffy's character just leaves me with a bitter taste in my mouth.



Sadly this was actually in character with how shallow Buffy had become in Buffy seasons six and seven. Kind of makes me glad Buffy's off the air so we don't have to put up with her weekly epiphanies.
:rolleyes:.... I'm begining to think I am the ONLY Buffy Summers fan.




I mean, not because I hate Buffy (I still do), but because she hasn't really been mentioned at all on this show. I mean, she really hasn't been a big part of Angel's life, or much of an impact on the adventures of Angel and the gang. She's not something we see Angel brooding over, or crying about at his corporate window. I just...I couldn't feel for him when it came to not having Buffy. I was just, "Who cares? So what? Buffy who? What about that hot Italian woman at Rome's W&H?"

I think we get it now... you hate Buffy. Buffy has be mentioned throughout the entire season. We know she lives in Rome, that she (and the rest of the Scoobies) don't trust Angel and the gang because of their new jobs at W&H, and that Spike still have feeling for her. She's been mentioned quite a few times actually. I laugh at your comment about Buffy not being a big part in his life. Hate her you can but she has been a major influence in his life and the reason why he went to LA. She helped him become more pure and more of a hero. She helped him redeem himself. Sure, now Buffy hasn't been there but they still love each other. Buffy is the first woman Angel has ever loved. I consider Darla as vampire lust, sorry and that Italian woman just looked skanky.



- Storm

[Robin2099]

Well I have mixed feelings on this episode. On the one hand, I thought that it was a funny episode that I enjoyed on a comedy level. I especially enjoyed the Spike and Angel interaction, and I thought that Illyria turning into Fred was cool. By the same token however, I was dissapointed that Darla and Drusilla were wasted in this episode, when they would of been better off in a diffrent one. I also thought focusing the episode around Buffy with no SMG didn't make much sense. If this was eariler in the season I would of enjoyed it a lot more, but as a final three episode it wasn't very good. ***

[Yojimbo]

Wow, didn't expect a laugh out loud episode but since it was directed by David Greenwalt...very reference crazy, too. Favorite scene was Spike and Dru in Italy in the 50's. Oh the agony, Angel had to get on the back of a moped again, at least he didn't have to wear a pink helmet. Andrew being so friendly was odd, as the Scoobies are supposed to be hostile towards Angel and co. Also a small detail, Gunn is only wearing street clothes, is he going to go back to being a muscle in the Angel gang? He also seems to be butting heads with Angel a lot more like in the earlier seasons. Omg, it seems the writers have Lorne mention a seabreeze drink at least once every season as some running gag.Idk. Next week's Power Play, so some big moves will be made hopefully and more plot revealed.

[James]

I also thought focusing the episode around Buffy with no SMG didn't make much sense.
I think as previously said, that was the cheeky point of the episode. The viewer chases along with Angel and Spike for Buffy and by the end, learns like A and B do, that its time to move on..

Which makes me suspect this was written on the premise of a new series... since Buffy had just finished, it was sort of nailing the lid on the Buffy coffin closed before moving on to new pastures..

Little did they know.. :(

[Aquadementia]

I didn't catch the first twenty minutes or so, I guess I should be glad I didn't miss anything.
So, all this time Andrew was just continental?
Buffy turning into Euro-trash, she had more nutritional value as cookie dough.
The worst thing to come out of this episode, Angle and Spike can't do a thing without a giant corporations backing them up. I guess it's their thing now to go half way around the world, then just give up.
I did like the Italian Wolfram & Hart. They could have given a hint as to why that women was CEO, she should have a dark scarry side.
There were a few funny moments, but this felt like a waste of one of their last precious hours.

[Kathy Kane]

Oh poor Spike and Angel, being out smarted by the Immortal time and again.
I liked that Buffy had moved on, and the cookie-dough thing.
a funny ep, but I wished it was connected to the next episode. I felt so bad for Wesley man I hope to see him kicking some butt in the next ep. Illyria wanting to explore it further and Wesley saying no. I just wish there was more eps to the series how can they fit the big bad in just two eps??

[Fone Bone]

:rolleyes:.... I'm begining to think I am the ONLY Buffy Summers fan.


You're not. I just love Buffy circa Seasons one through five. After season six she was such a downer, using Spike, whining all the time, ignoring Dawn, having an epiphany a week only to go back to being shallow the next week. (At least when Angel had his epiphany it stuck.) So unlikable it wasn't even funny. At the beginning of season seven she started to be more like Buffy but once the potentials arrived she became an arrogant overbearing taskmaster believing she was better than everybody else. She was prone to longwinded speeches and humorless observations. After spending a romantic night in the arms of the man who would do anything for her she kisses a petulant Angel without a second thought. The way this episode of Angel was written it was completely in character for the way Buffy had become the past two years. Marti Noxon basically wrecked Buffy's character and she never recovered. It's not SMG's fault (who I've always found to be an extraordinary actress) Joss dropped the ball on his central character.

[Storm]

Yeah, Marti had no business becoming executive producer for S6 and S7 but Joss was so wrapped up with Firefly. Anyway I see and respect all of your points about Buffy's "downfall" but I always have answers for everything.

Season Six: Buffy came back from they dead. She was alone and she didn't want to cope with the world anymore. She found sex as way to get away from that. This was a very low point for Buffy. She used Spike, yes that was bad but she completely understood what she was doing was wrong and made amends with herself... thanks to Tara and told Spike what they were doing had to stop. Buffy ignoring Dawn. Okay, yeah, she did ignore Dawn in the beginning of the season but Dawn is part of why Buffy made that sacrifice. She didn't know how to care for Dawn again (remember coming back from the dead) and just seeing the reason why you died... would you want to put up with them too? I'm not saying Buffy didn't love Dawn it just hard to cope with having Dawn around and being the "mom" again. Yeah it was wrong but at the end of Season Six, Buffy was back to normal and not the "downer" anymore and she made Dawn her full priority again.


Season Seven & The Girl in Question: Like you said, Buffy was Buffy again and gave some hope to fans. She was witty, perky, and the Buffster again. You see I'm a rare breed I didn't think Buffy was that hard on the potentials. The potentials were so annoying and they made Dawn during S5 look pleasant. Sometimes you have to take charge and become a responsible adult to get things done. She had to become that teacher... that harsh.... because if Buffy didn't all of those girl would have ended up dead. You really can't fault Buffy for thinking she was better than everybody because she is. Faith even said it during S3. Slayers are superior to other people. They protect the world from things humanity are not ready to deal with.... do you think they are going to be level headed? Every Slayer is alone. Every Slayer is prone to superiority. Slayers are not suppose to have relationships like everybody else... other than their watchers. So I don't fault Buffy for feeling that way.... It was actually a matter of time for that to happen. Atleast Buffy admitted to her problems during "Conversations w/ Dead People." I think people over exaggerate about the speeches. Sure they were boring but some of them were needed. Where would The Potentials be without Buffy? Faith was doing time in jail at the time and the Scoobies wouldn't had a clue how to handle them either. Willow, Xander, Giles, Anya, and Dawn are experts at things like that but they are not the Slayer where the girls could look up too. Now how can I explain Buffy and Angel's kiss? Well, it was sloppiness on Joss' part but the apocalypse was coming and Buffy hasn't seen Angel in the longest... so I'll allow her that. I think a lot of people are just mad at the fact that Buffy has moved on. Did you hear the cookie dough speech? She has to live and find herself. After giving "The Girl in Question" some thought I was a little bit happy for Buffy. She's been granted a new life again. She's not the slayer anymore. She is free. If Buffy moved to LA only to be with Angel again that would defeat the purpose of her freedom. She has to live life first and understand life. Meeting new people and starting new relationships is all about life. Buffy did seem flaky but everybody is flaky for a while. It's all apart of growing up. Buffy is growing up now. Living life. My only gripe is that it's with another vampire. Buffy needs a normal guy in her life. Someone to make her happy but this is what gets me wondering and kind of ticked off with Joss. Is this how things will end? Joss haven't been for happy and perfect endings but I don't want Buffy to move on with vampire guy or Angel to move on with dog girl (I hate Nina!!!!). Sure date for a while but at the end of the day the perfect ending for these characters would be for the Shanshu to come true and they could finally be together. Thinking about this only makes me upset with WB and for Joss and Co written this episode.... because it does seem like Buffy and Angel are no more. BTW, never let Andrew speak on anybody's behalf.



- Storm

[Fone Bone]

Yeah, Marti had no business becoming executive producer for S6 and S7 but Joss was so wrapped up with Firefly. Anyway I see and respect all of your points about Buffy's "downfall" but I always have answers for everything.

Season Six: Buffy came back from they dead. She was alone and she didn't want to cope with the world anymore. She found sex as way to get away from that. This was a very low point for Buffy. She used Spike, yes that was bad but she completely understood what she was doing was wrong and made amends with herself... thanks to Tara and told Spike what they were doing had to stop. Buffy ignoring Dawn. Okay, yeah, she did ignore Dawn in the beginning of the season but Dawn is part of why Buffy made that sacrifice. She didn't know how to care for Dawn again (remember coming back from the dead) and just seeing the reason why you died... would you want to put up with them too? I'm not saying Buffy didn't love Dawn it just hard to cope with having Dawn around and being the "mom" again. Yeah it was wrong but at the end of Season Six, Buffy was back to normal and not the "downer" anymore and she made Dawn her full priority again.


Season Seven & The Girl in Question: Like you said, Buffy was Buffy again and gave some hope to fans. She was witty, perky, and the Buffster again. You see I'm a rare breed I didn't think Buffy was that hard on the potentials. The potentials were so annoying and they made Dawn during S5 look pleasant. Sometimes you have to take charge and become a responsible adult to get things done. She had to become that teacher... that harsh.... because if Buffy didn't all of those girl would have ended up dead. You really can't fault Buffy for thinking she was better than everybody because she is. Faith even said it during S3. Slayers are superior to other people. They protect the world from things humanity are not ready to deal with.... do you think they are going to be level headed? Every Slayer is alone. Every Slayer is prone to superiority. Slayers are not suppose to have relationships like everybody else... other than their watchers. So I don't fault Buffy for feeling that way.... It was actually a matter of time for that to happen. Atleast Buffy admitted to her problems during "Conversations w/ Dead People." I think people over exaggerate about the speeches. Sure they were boring but some of them were needed. Where would The Potentials be without Buffy? Faith was doing time in jail at the time and the Scoobies wouldn't had a clue how to handle them either. Willow, Xander, Giles, Anya, and Dawn are experts at things like that but they are not the Slayer where the girls could look up too. Now how can I explain Buffy and Angel's kiss? Well, it was sloppiness on Joss' part but the apocalypse was coming and Buffy hasn't seen Angel in the longest... so I'll allow her that. I think a lot of people are just mad at the fact that Buffy has moved on. Did you hear the cookie dough speech? She has to live and find herself. After giving "The Girl in Question" some thought I was a little bit happy for Buffy. She's been granted a new life again. She's not the slayer anymore. She is free. If Buffy moved to LA only to be with Angel again that would defeat the purpose of her freedom. She has to live life first and understand life. Meeting new people and starting new relationships is all about life. Buffy did seem flaky but everybody is flaky for a while. It's all apart of growing up. Buffy is growing up now. Living life. My only gripe is that it's with another vampire. Buffy needs a normal guy in her life. Someone to make her happy but this is what gets me wondering and kind of ticked off with Joss. Is this how things will end? Joss haven't been for happy and perfect endings but I don't want Buffy to move on with vampire guy or Angel to move on with dog girl (I hate Nina!!!!). Sure date for a while but at the end of the day the perfect ending for these characters would be for the Shanshu to come true and they could finally be together. Thinking about this only makes me upset with WB and for Joss and Co written this episode.... because it does seem like Buffy and Angel are no more. BTW, never let Andrew speak on anybody's behalf.



- Storm
Okay, I hear what you're saying but I'm gonna have to call you on one thing: Buffy is not better than everybody else. Willow is more powerful, Giles is a better strategist, Xander is waaaay more empathetic to others needs, and Anya was more practical. Buffy was put in a leader position which she clearly did not deserve at that point. I wasn't mad at how she worked the potentials. (Rona deserved to be smacked upside the head.) I was mad how she treated her FRIENDS. Her going ballistic on everybody when Chloe died was uncalled for and just led to alienating the people in her inner circle. Her treatment of Giles after he tried to have Spike killed was understandable but also extremely stupid. She needed his guidance at that point and her ego refused to let him help her and led to her leading the potential's to Caleb's vineyard where he slaughtered two potentails and cost Xander his eye. Her "I'm better than you and you will just shut up and get in line" attitude was what led to her being kicked out of the house. I'd be tempted to say she learned something from this if it weren't for the kiss with Angel and this horrible episode. I want my old Buffy back.:(

[Storm]

I want my old Buffy back.:(
LOL, the old Buffy persona died when she jumped in that pretty pinkish portal during "The Gift." No really I see what your saying I do prefer S1-S5 Buffy over the last two seasons but I understand why she did all those things. I do think Buffy can recover if they ever do a movie. Speaking of movies... it's not looking good for the Angel/Buffy TV movies. Joss doesn't even what to give the WB the satisfaction and is not taking their offer and David has stated that he's relived that the show has ended and that he is not sure if he'll reprise the role. All I'm going to say is: David you are not SMG or Alyson Hannigin. You do not have other projects to fall back on.


- Storm

[Fone Bone]

LOL, the old Buffy persona died when she jumped in that pretty pinkish portal during "The Gift." No really I see what your saying I do prefer S1-S5 Buffy over the last two seasons but I understand why she did all those things. I do think Buffy can recover if they ever do a movie. Speaking of movies... it's not looking good for the Angel/Buffy TV movies. Joss doesn't even what to give the WB the satisfaction and is not taking their offer and David has stated that he's relived that the show has ended and that he is not sure if he'll reprise the role. All I'm going to say is: David you are not SMG or Alyson Hannigin. You do not have other projects to fall back on.


- Storm
So what, he's too good for Angel now? Him and Joss need to get their heads out of their rears and do a movie. Does this mean that the series WON'T end on a cliffhanger? God, I hope so.

[Storm]

So what, he's too good for Angel now? Him and Joss need to get their heads out of their rears and do a movie. Does this mean that the series WON'T end on a cliffhanger? God, I hope so.

It seems like it. This have lots of fans angry. I've seen so much dual DB and SMG bashing for the past couple of days it's laughable. David wants to move on and he has the right to. He portrayed this character for eight years. Eight years is a long time. David is a talented man and I want to see him doing other projects plus he is a family man who doesn't get to see his wife and son a lot. Joss is just reacting out of anger at the WB. All I have to say is that he'll get over it. I think the best thing for the Buffyverse is to continue their adventures in comic book form (taking place after BtVS season seven and AtS season five) or another spinoff, hopefully Fray. Start over. Taking place after BtVS season seven and AtS season five. The series will end with a departure and new beginning. I'm also hearing some rumors that SMG is appearing in a cameo it's just that Joss is trying to PunkD us fans. I was watching David B on CNN last week and he did hint at it. So you never know but I'm not getting my hopes up.



- Storm

[Fone Bone]

It seems like it. This have lots of fans angry. I've seen so much dual DB and SMG bashing for the past couple of days it's laughable. David wants to move on and he has the right to. He portrayed this character for eight years. Eight years is a long time. David is a talented man and I want to see him doing other projects plus he is a family man who doesn't get to see his wife and son a lot. Joss is just reacting out of anger at the WB. All I have to say is that he'll get over it. I think the best thing for the Buffyverse is to continue their adventures in comic book form (taking place after BtVS season seven and AtS season five) or another spinoff, hopefully Fray. Start over. Taking place after BtVS season seven and AtS season five. The series will end with a departure and new beginning. I'm also hearing some rumors that SMG is appearing in a cameo it's just that Joss is trying to PunkD us fans. I was watching David B on CNN last week and he did hint at it. So you never know but I'm not getting my hopes up.



- Storm
I don't mind a new beginning (Buffy ended that way) but I will be furious if it's a cliffhanger. I'm all for DB moving on to other projects but if he leaves Angel unresolved I'll be angry. Shanshu would be best but I'm not hoping for miracles.

[Storm]

I don't mind a new beginning (Buffy ended that way) but I will be furious if it's a cliffhanger. I'm all for DB moving on to other projects but if he leaves Angel unresolved I'll be angry. Shanshu would be best but I'm not hoping for miracles.

It's actually not David's fault how Angel ends. I agree that Shanshu would be the best way to end Angel. Buffy got her freedom. Angel needs to get back his humanity and dust The Immortal and start a family with Buffy and move to Upstate New York (because it's cool) and get a dog and past the touch to Spike and Faith to do the demon and vampire slaying, hehe.


- Storm

[Fone Bone]

It's actually not David's fault how Angel ends. I agree that Shanshu would be the best way to end Angel. Buffy got her freedom. Angel needs to get back his humanity and dust The Immortal and start a family with Buffy and move to Upstate New York (because it's cool) and start a family and past the touch to Spike and Faith, hehe.


- Storm
But will it be a cliffhanger or a new beginning? Similar to how season three ended or season four? Help!

[Storm]

But will it be a cliffhanger or a new beginning? Similar to how season three ended or season four? Help!
Both. That's all. My lips are sealed. It's bad enough that I know who dies and what will happen but Joss is very hush hush on the ending so that I do not know.


- Storm

[Fone Bone]

Both. That's all. My lips are sealed. It's bad enough that I know who dies and what will happen but Joss is very hush hush on the ending so that I do not know.


- Storm
Oh. So there's been Nothing confirming a cliffhanger. That's a relief. I wouldn't mind if it was open ended. Any more word on the Spike spinoff?

[Storm]

Oh. So there's been Nothing confirming a cliffhanger. That's a relief. I wouldn't mind if it was open ended. Any more word on the Spike spinoff?

Amy Acker stated that's it's pretty much open ended and I'm also hearing that it will put the Buffyverse in a whole in persepective (except no Buffy characters) just how Buffy Summers effected the universe. No word on the Spike spinoff sorry. If Spike does get his own spinoff I wouldn't be surpised if Illyria joins him since Illyria is a new character and all.


- Storm

[Fone Bone]

Amy Acker stated that's it's pretty much open ended and I'm alshearing that it will put the Buffyverse in a whole in persepective (except no Buffy characters) just how Buffy Summers effected the universe. No word on the Spike spinoff sorry. If Spike does get his own spinoff I wouldn't be surpised if Illyria joins him since Illyria is a new character and all.


- Storm
Cool! I'm excited about the finale again! And if the Spike spinoff ever does happen Angel wouldn't even HAVE to shanshu.;)

[Storm]

Cool! I'm excited about the finale again! And if the Spike spinoff ever does happen Angel wouldn't even HAVE to shanshu.;)

I still want Angel to shanshu. He deserves it.


- Storm

[MAXIMUS]

Well hopefully I can right a pretty lengthy and good last 2 Angel Talkback posts. Still not sure How I'm going to do it but might have to even write a draft. hehe

[Fone Bone]

I still want Angel to shanshu. He deserves it.


- Storm
True but if DB won't come back Spike is the logical choice to wrap up that plot line. Ball's in DB's court.

[Storm]

True but if DB won't come back Spike is the logical choice to wrap up that plot line. Ball's in DB's court.
Not really. When AtS ends Buffy (SMG) and Angel (DB) do not really have to appear in any spinoffs. Sure it would be nice but Buffy wants to just live a normal life now and she deserves it no matter how "shallow" the character has gotten. If Angel shanshu then he deserves to live a normal life too. Spike really doesn't need to shanshu the real Champion is Angel not Spike. If Spike continues in a spinoff then he can still fight the forces of evil without recieving a reward for it.


- Storm

[JohnCrichton]

The final 8 episodes of the past three seasons were just insanely mind blowing that it's pretty sad to see Angel go out like this. If they were given another season, this might be okay, but this is just terrible the way they're handling the Angel-verse.

I can't say enough how much I detest having had Fred killed how she was without any hope of getting her back... ever. That was a waste and for no real pay off except for being annoyed that Illirya is here and Fred isn't.

With two episodes left they did a frickin' filler at best episode.

I definatly would've actually like to've seen the Immortal. I keep thinking it's Duncan McLeod. :D

Anyway... Spike is bad luck to a television series. He throws off focus, just like he did in Buffy and now he's doing it here in Angel.

[Storm]

Okay, I hear what you're saying but I'm gonna have to call you on one thing: Buffy is not better than everybody else. Willow is more powerful, Giles is a better strategist, Xander is waaaay more empathetic to others needs, and Anya was more practical. Buffy was put in a leader position which she clearly did not deserve at that point. I wasn't mad at how she worked the potentials. (Rona deserved to be smacked upside the head.) I was mad how she treated her FRIENDS. Her going ballistic on everybody when Chloe died was uncalled for and just led to alienating the people in her inner circle. Her treatment of Giles after he tried to have Spike killed was understandable but also extremely stupid. She needed his guidance at that point and her ego refused to let him help her and led to her leading the potential's to Caleb's vineyard where he slaughtered two potentails and cost Xander his eye. Her "I'm better than you and you will just shut up and get in line" attitude was what led to her being kicked out of the house. I'd be tempted to say she learned something from this if it weren't for the kiss with Angel and this horrible episode. I want my old Buffy back.:(
I can't believe I forgot this post.... anyway I just want to post my thoughts since you and I have a good poster/poster relationship. Like I said Buffy is better than other people. Maybe better is the wrong wording... how about Superior? Or important? I wasn't talking about Buffy persona wise. Buffy will always have a special place among the world because she is the slayer. Just like how Faith is, how Kendra was, how the first slayer was, and how Fray will turn out to be. They are better than normal people like Gunn and even better than vampires like Angel... he's not the champion yet. Slayers are given this divine birthright that separates them from regular average joes like you and I. Sorry that just how the Buffyverse works.


Okay I'll give you credit when it comes to Willow being more powerful and Giles being the better strategist. Anya was practical sometimes but I have to stop you when it comes to Xander. Xander is the most empathetic to others needs? I'm sorry I must have been hearing wrong. Sure Xander could be the kind spirit towards his fellow Scoobies when he wanted to be... like the time were he stopped Willow from destroying the planet with her reign of terror by saying "I love you" and the other time when he made Dawn feel like she belonged in the group in "Potential" and the time in "The Freshman" when he gave that heartfelt pep talk to Buffy but there have been many times when Xander was just a jerk towards Buffy during S2 and S3.


Don't get me wrong Xander is one of my favorite characters, he's not like Buffy or Giles but he is my favorite. It's just been times when Xander was selfish just like Buffy but atleast Buffy had a reason... y'know death and leading a group of young girls. Xander has been selfish and let me give you a rundown of the top four....


1) During S2 when Angel turned into Angelus, Xander made Buffy feel like dirt for having a hard time battling the man she loved, the man who had been so loving towards her, and not being able to not see that. And when it came down to them arguing over whether or not to re-ensoul Angel, Buffy wanted to end Angelus' reign of evil and get the vampire she loved back. But Xander argues that they shouldn't do it because Angel deserves to die. Xander knows that the real Angel never did any of those horrible things, but he tries to hold him responsible for Angelus' actions. Is that the true motives for a noble or empathetic towards others? I think not. It seemed like Willow and Giles and even Cordy were caring towards Buffy's feelings than Xander.


2) During S2 and S3 Xander always rubbed Angel being evil in Buffy's face. And lets not forget the time when Xander betrays Willow and Buffy and lies to Buffy about Willow's message to her, not informing Buffy that her friend is going to attempt the spell to give Angel back his soul again, but telling Buffy... Willow wants her to "kick Angel's ass".


3) When Buffy returns home after running away from home after killing Angel what does Xander do? Act like a jerk again. I fault Willow and Joyce too but Xander was the worst. He attacked Buffy doing the welcome back party. He didn't even care about her feeling. Atleast Willow admitted she was wrong. Xander has always had some kind of anger towards Buffy and the fact that she loves him and attacks her constantly throughout the series. Maybe not always but he had his moments where he was absolutely wrong and seemed jealous. Oh Xander didn't you have a girlfriend at the time... a girl named Cordelia?


4) Lastly but not least the episode where he shunned Buffy for keeping her and Spike's affair a secret. Yes, it was an unhealthy relationship. It was unhealthy and forbidden. When Spike suddenly let the cat out of the bag and told him the truth, he acted like Buffy had made a personal offense against him. He really had no right to be mad at her. Sure upset but treating her like she's the worst person in the world? No. Buffy has saved his butt so many times he should be understanding and more caring towards Buffy. Isn't that what friends are for? Buffy is a big girl and can sleep with Spike if she wants to. And how dare he get huffy at her for keeping it a secret. He knows *very* well why she opted not to tell him. I mean it's Spike!


If Xander was this compassionate person he wouldn't have done all those things to Buffy or his friends. If you want to label Xander anything call him "the loyal" of the team. He has been loyal towards Buffy and always had her back but then again he seemed like a hypocrite and a person who doesn't care about others feelings a the same time. The only two people who even deserve to be labeled "more empathetic" is Tara or St. Cordy.


Also romances are different from how people react to certain situations. The kiss wasn't that bad (IMHO) and like I said before Buffy is a big girl she is allowed to move on. Do you see a ring on her finger? No. Angel and Buffy are still broken up and she still thinks Spike is dead. Buffy cannot wait for Angel or Spike. She is not a prize to be earn. Buffy outgrown Giles and he knew that. Buffy has outgrown Giles a few times before and she did it again. She is the only slayer that has actually out live a normal slayer's run.



Okay.... Done.




- Storm

[Fone Bone]

I can't believe I forgot this post.... anyway I just want to post my thoughts since you and I have a good poster/poster relationship. Like I said Buffy is better than other people. Maybe better is the wrong wording... how about Superior? Or important? I wasn't talking about Buffy persona wise. Buffy will always have a special place among the world because she is the slayer. Just like how Faith is, how Kendra was, how the first slayer was, and how Fray will turn out to be. They are better than normal people like Gunn and even better than vampires like Angel... he's not the champion yet. Slayers are given this divine birthright that separates them from regular average joes like you and I. Sorry that just how the Buffyverse works.


Okay I'll give you credit when it comes to Willow being more powerful and Giles being the better strategist. Anya was practical sometimes but I have to stop you when it comes to Xander. Xander is the most empathetic to others needs? I'm sorry I must have been hearing wrong. Sure Xander could be the kind spirit towards his fellow Scoobies when he wanted to be... like the time were he stopped Willow from destroying the planet with her reign of terror by saying "I love you" and the other time when he made Dawn feel like she belonged in the group in "Potential" and the time in "The Freshman" when he gave that heartfelt pep talk to Buffy but there have been many times when Xander was just a jerk towards Buffy during S2 and S3.


Don't get me wrong Xander is one of my favorite characters, he's not like Buffy or Giles but he is my favorite. It's just been times when Xander was selfish just like Buffy but atleast Buffy had a reason... y'know death and leading a group of young girls. Xander has been selfish and let me give you a rundown of the top four....


1) During S2 when Angel turned into Angelus, Xander made Buffy feel like dirt for having a hard time battling the man she loved, the man who had been so loving towards her, and not being able to not see that. And when it came down to them arguing over whether or not to re-ensoul Angel, Buffy wanted to end Angelus' reign of evil and get the vampire she loved back. But Xander argues that they shouldn't do it because Angel deserves to die. Xander knows that the real Angel never did any of those horrible things, but he tries to hold him responsible for Angelus' actions. Is that the true motives for a noble or empathetic towards others? I think not. It seemed like Willow and Giles and even Cordy were caring towards Buffy's feelings than Xander.


2) During S2 and S3 Xander always rubbed Angel being evil in Buffy's face. And lets not forget the time when Xander betrays Willow and Buffy and lies to Buffy about Willow's message to her, not informing Buffy that her friend is going to attempt the spell to give Angel back his soul again, but telling Buffy... Willow wants her to "kick Angel's ass".


3) When Buffy returns home after running away from home after killing Angel what does Xander do? Act like a jerk again. I fault Willow and Joyce too but Xander was the worst. He attacked Buffy doing the welcome back party. He didn't even care about her feeling. Atleast Willow admitted she was wrong. Xander has always had some kind of anger towards Buffy and the fact that she loves him and attacks her constantly throughout the series. Maybe not always but he had his moments where he was absolutely wrong and seemed jealous. Oh Xander didn't you have a girlfriend at the time... a girl named Cordelia?


4) Lastly but not least the episode where he shunned Buffy for keeping her and Spike's affair a secret. Yes, it was an unhealthy relationship. It was unhealthy and forbidden. When Spike suddenly let the cat out of the bag and told him the truth, he acted like Buffy had made a personal offense against him. He really had no right to be mad at her. Sure upset but treating her like she's the worst person in the world? No. Buffy has saved his butt so many times he should be understanding and more caring towards Buffy. Isn't that what friends are for? Buffy is a big girl and can sleep with Spike if she wants to. And how dare he get huffy at her for keeping it a secret. He knows *very* well why she opted not to tell him. I mean it's Spike!


If Xander was this compassionate person he wouldn't have done all those things to Buffy or his friends. If you want to label Xander anything call him "the loyal" of the team. He has been loyal towards Buffy and always had her back but then again he seemed like a hypocrite and a person who doesn't care about others feelings a the same time. The only two people who even deserve to be labeled "more empathetic" is Tara or St. Cordy.


Also romances are different from how people react to certain situations. The kiss wasn't that bad (IMHO) and like I said before Buffy is a big green she is allowed move on. Do you see a ring on her finger? No. Angel and Buffy are still broken up and she still thinks Spike is dead. Buffy cannot wait for Angel or Spike. She is not a prize to be earn. Buffy outgrown Giles and he knew that. Buffy has outgrown Giles a few times before and she did it again. She is the only slayer that has actually out live a normal slayer's run.



Okay.... Done.




- Storm
There's a big difference between Buffy and Xander... Xander has grown as a character.

Every example you gave Xander learned from. After the Buffy/Spike thing in season six Xander learned not to be so judgemental and grew to the point where he was able to stop Willow, encourange Dawn, and stick up for Buffy to the potentials. Buffy is as selfish as she's ever been, and during season six and seven even more so. Xander's biggest fault is that he's never come clean to Buffy about Willow's message in Becoming. Compared to the mess Buffy made of things in the last two seasons, that's not even in the same ballpark.

I think Xander was only judgemental about Buffy sleeping with Spike because Spike slept with Anya. He had a hard time accepting Buffy could ever be with a person who hurt him so much. That's a far cry from the petty jealousies he harbored against Angel in Seasons two and three.

So yes, Xander is much more empathetic than Buffy NOW. It's not really fair to compare their behavior if you don't take into consideration about what they learned from it. Xander was the heart and soul of the Scoobie Gang as demonstrated in season four's Primevil. Buffy has been selfish and petty in season SEVEN right up to the end so this episode of Angel wasn't out of character at all.

I also want to say one thing. It has NEVER been established on Buffy the Vampire Slayer or Angel that the Slayer is better or superior or more important than anybody else. If anything it's been the prophecies about the vampire with a soul that will have great import. The fact that Buffy feels she is better, more important and superior than everybody else has been established by her alone or her friends who were willing to swallow it.

Sorry, if I came off as angry. I'm not and I do have a great respect for your opinions. I still love Buffy but was only pointing out how she is not infallible.:)

[Storm]

There's a big difference between Buffy and Xander... Xander has grown as a character.

Every example you gave Xander learned from. After the Buffy/Spike thing in season six Xander learned not to be so judgemental and grew to the point where he was able to stop Willow, encourange Dawn, and stick up for Buffy to the potentials. Buffy is as selfish as she's ever been, and during season six and seven even more so. Xander's biggest fault is that he's never come clean to Buffy about Willow's message in Becoming. Compared to the mess Buffy made of things in the last two seasons, that's not even in the same ballpark.

I think Xander was only judgemental about Buffy sleeping with Spike because Spike slept with Anya. He had a hard time accepting Buffy could ever be with a person who hurt him so much. That's a far cry from the petty jealousies he harbored against Angel in Seasons two and three.

So yes, Xander is much more empathetic than Buffy NOW. It's not really fair to compare their behavior if you don't take into consideration about what they learned from it. Xander was the heart and soul of the Scoobie Gang as demonstrated in season four's Primevil. Buffy has been selfish and petty in season SEVEN right up to the end so this episode of Angel wasn't out of character at all.

I also want to say one thing. It has NEVER been established on Buffy the Vampire Slayer or Angel that the Slayer is better or superior or more important than anybody else. If anything it's been the prophecies about the vampire with a soul that will have great import. The fact that Buffy feels she is better, more important and superior than everybody else has been established by her alone or her friends who were willing to swallow it.

Sorry, if I came off as angry. I'm not and I do have a great respect for your opinions. I still love Buffy but was only pointing out how she is not infallible.:)

No hard feelings at all. You are allowed your opinion. I'm just a BIG Buffy Summers fan and I personally think what she had to do in season seven was just tough love. Buffy has never been the same every since she was resurrected, it was hard for her to deal with life. I don't want to go on with a whole "Oh Poor Buffy speech" because I could but I don't want to, lol. I just think to hold Buffy's actions on an episode that was literally forced it really is unfair because Buffy really couldn't defend herself and plus I hated the fact that they let Andrew speak on Buffy's behalf. If SMG were there as Buffy and she still acted "flaky" towards Angel and Spike then, yes, I would grant you that but I just won't when this episode was just forced and milking the whole Angel/Spike/Buffy triangle. Is Buffy really a bad person for moving on? I don't think so. It's life. Angel is in LA fighting the good fight and plus she still think Spike is dead. It funny when you say Buffy was so flaky in this episode... she didn't care about Angel or Spike's feelings. Well that's bull. Throughout S5 Angel and Spike have shown signs of "moving on" too. Angel and Eve were both intimate in that Halloween/Lorne themed episode and I think it's safe to say that he has a bit of a relationship with Nina a.k.a. the annoying dog girl. Lets not forget Spike and Harmony having sex in one of the offices in one of the earlier episode of S5 before she went crazy from a possessed demon. So the all have been flaky. I take Buffy and Angel's kiss as a spontaneous reaction of feelings kind of like "Your Welcome" when Cordy and Angel kiss. Also Fone Bone not angry just very agressive, hehe. :)








- Storm

[Fone Bone]

No hard feelings at all. You are allowed your opinion. I'm just a BIG Buffy Summers fan and I personally think what she had to do in season seven was just tough love. Buffy has never been the same every since she was resurrected, it was hard for her to deal with life. I don't want to go on with a whole "Oh Poor Buffy speech" because I could but I don't want to, lol. I just think to hold Buffy's actions on an episode that was literally forced it really is unfair because Buffy really couldn't defend herself and plus I hated the fact that they let Andrew speak on Buffy's behalf. If SMG were there as Buffy and she still acted "flaky" towards Angel and Spike then, yes, I would grant you that but I just won't when this episode was just forced and milking the whole Angel/Spike/Buffy triangle. Is Buffy really a bad person for moving on? I don't think so. It's life. Angel is in LA fighting the good fight and plus she still think Spike is dead. It funny when you say Buffy was so flaky in this episode... she didn't care about Angel or Spike's feelings. Well that's bull. Throughout S5 Angel and Spike have shown signs of "moving on" too. Angel and Eve were both intimate in that Halloween/Lorne themed episode and I think it's safe to say that he has a bit of a relationship with Nina a.k.a. the annoying dog girl. Lets not forget Spike and Harmony having sex in one of the offices in one of the earlier episode of S5 before she went crazy from a possessed demon. So the all have been flaky. I take Buffy and Angel's kiss as a spontaneous reaction of feelings kind of like "Your Welcome" when Cordy and Angel kiss. Also Fone Bone not angry just very agressive, hehe. :)








- Storm
I'm not upset she moved on. I'm upset she moved on with another immortal type person. If she had gotten with a normal guy like Riley I would completely understand. It just cheapened both of her relationships that she glommed on to the closest demon she could find.

Yes, I liked Riley too.:)

[Master Moron]

Actually, I read in an interview inn TV Guide(I can't remember who it was with, sorry) that Buffy can't have a relationship with a normal person because their bodies aren't strong enough. I mean, she CAN have a relationship, it just isn't as enjoyable to her unless they have super strength and endurance.

Anyway, did this episode actually say the Immortal was a vampire? I mean, I thought he was just some immortal demon or something. I mean, aren't vampires supposed to be evil? Or does he have a soul too? Wouldn't it be funny if the shanshu prophecy was about the immortal?

Also, the reason Xander was always an ass to Buffy was because he was in love with her and he was constantly jealous, at least for the first few seasons.