Why did the animated Tim Drake have Jason Todd's origin?

[Patrick Bateman]

It's just something I've been curious about ever since first seeing "Sins of the Father". I understand not using Jason due to his severe unpopularity and gruesome demise, and I understand why Tim was used, because he was the current and very popular Robin. But, when I saw the episode for the first time, I actually thought Tim was Jason until the name "Drake" was used in reference to his dad. Now, that one threw me. This was literally Jason Todd wearing Tim Drake's name. Everything was there, the crooked dad who had Two-Face breathing down his neck, to him being a juvenile delinquent with a tendency for five-finger discounts. Tim, to me, was a good kid who discovered who Batman was through detective work and took it upon himself to become Robin in an attempt to fill a position he thought was necessary to balance out Batman. It's a really cool concept, and I was just wondering if anyone had insight on why Jason's origin was used in favor of his own.

[DisneyBoy]

I'm no expert when it comes to Boy Wonders, or anything mainstream for that matter, but in my few regular Batman comics (from the early 90s), Tim Drake had a father in a wheelchair to care for, and a dead mother. I knew nothing about his origins based on what little I'd read, except that his duties as Robin were pulling him away from his real father.


Sounds like a bit too much baggage to give a sidekick on a cartoon show doesn't it? Batgirl is the only character with a parent, and since her upgrade in TNBA nearly no stories (not even in Batman Adventures) have dealt with the consequences of her other life with regards to her father, save "Over the Edge". The writers had a hard enough time giving Alfred several things to do, and he lives in the mansion. Imagine writing scenes every episode between Tim and the Dad he's neglecting to run out and play Robin. Not fun.

So instead, we get a kid from the wrong side of the tracks with a good heart who just needs a good chance. His father dies, he ends up in the Batcave after the killer, Two-Face, tries to bump him off too, and voila - instant Robin. No connections to anyone. A blank slate for the writers to write on.

My biggest issue was that not enough care was taken in showing us the development of this BOY wonder. He's no more than ten or twelve, and yet he's suddenly thrust into a world of money and mansions and nightly rooftop battles? Hardly normal. Methinks Tim spent some time with Leslie Thompkins sorting it all out. And how does he feel about Two-Face? The man he knows KILLED his father? Even when he confronts him for the first time in costume in "SOTF", he's pretty happy-go-lucky about it. Maybe the writers tried to lighten to load there, as far as mental distress goes. I think they missed out on a lot of golden opportunities to make Tim out to be something other than a young Dick.

I like him...but the pieces of his life don't fit together in a believeable way. Lord knows it doesn't get any better for him down the road...

[Simpler Simon]

I think they missed out on a lot of golden opportunities to make Tim out to be something other than a young Dick.

I like him...but the pieces of his life don't fit together in a believeable way. Lord knows it doesn't get any better for him down the road...
The point was that Tim didn't care for his father at all, and his father all but abandoned him. Like the older Tim Drake said in ROTJ, he treated the Robin gig as a kind of game, since Batman was always there to watch his back. He didn't realize how serious the stakes were until that faithful night with the Joker...and then it was too late. The shortened episode count of TNBA and Tim Drake's handful of appearances only reinforce the idea that this was a Robin cut down before realizing his full potential, both with the writers and within the series.

As for why Tim has Jason's origin, three things. One, it's the show's way of acknowledging both Robins that came after Dick Grayson. Two, again the show's episode count was limited and they had to introduce Robin fast. Three, Tim Drake in the comics became Robin out of concern for Batman, who was starting to get sloppy after Jason Todd died. The animated Batman didn't go through this tragedy, and even had Batgirl as a sidekick when Dick left. Hence Tim had an obsession with Batman as shown in Sins of the Father, but no real reason to stalk him or find him.

[randomguy]

Yeah, the entire thing was a little rushed. Still, sometimes you just gotta roll with the punches on these sorts of things.

I always figured there were two major reasons for Tim Drake being saddled with Jason Todd's origin. The first is that Jason Todd's origin is both more interesting than Tim Drake's and genuinely intriguing in its own right. It's not as strong as Dick Grayson's Robin origin story, but I still think the Todd origin is pretty cool. I always liked the idea of selecting a juvenile delinquent as Robin. Y'know, taking a kid from the streets, whose life is heading in all the wrong directions, and turning him into a force for good. There's something about the idea (which has serious redemption themes) that has always resonated with me. Tim's origin (boy deduces Bruce Wayne is Batman, offers himself as a sidekick because he thinks Batman needs one) is decent, but little more than functional. It's not an awful origin, but it's pretty boring. That was okay in the comics, because Drake had plenty of time to develop as a character, eventually becoming an almost universally-beloved hero. The animated version didn't have that developmental leeway, and kinda had to throw Tim into Robin mode right away. So it strengthened the origin to make up for all that lost time. I figure it was probably a fair trade-off. It's worth noting that there are echoes of Jason Todd and animated Tim Drake in Terry McGinnis.

The second major reason is that Tim Drake's comics origin couldn't work, because it was tied so heavily into Jason Todd in the first place. The entire reason that Tim decided to offer his services as a third Robin was because he had made note of the fact that Todd's death had made Batman distant and brutal. Todd's demise was the primary motivation for Tim Drake to come to Bruce Wayne, and in many ways, the primary reason that Bruce accepted the offer (basically, he knew Tim was right). Without Todd's death, the Drake origin becomes more or less unusable.

There are two other routes the animated series could have taken. For one thing, they could have used Jason Todd in the first place, instead of Tim Drake, so the character and the origin lined up right. That wouldn't really work, because Todd was pretty annoying, and the creators probably didn't want to be constantly bombarded by fans asking "So, when's he gonna die?". I figure this is probably why they didn't use Hal Jordan in STAS and JL- because that would have created a mass of fans crying for Parallax, something Timm probably had no interest in doing. Besides, using Jason Todd would have lessened the impact of ROTJ's Robin sequence, because fans would have seen it coming.

They could have also devised an entirely new origin for Drake, neither the comics Drake nor the Jason Todd origins, but something entirely fresh. I don't think I would have preferred that, either. In retrospect, I think the creative team definitely made the smart choice.

It's worth mentioning that the origin stories aren't the only similiarities shared by Jason Todd and Animated Tim Drake. Both are brash, impulsive, and showy (a far cry from the comics Tim, who is the most level-headed, careful, and methodical of the Robins). And both suffer crumbling defeats at the hands of the Joker.

[Eddie G.]

The DCAU Robin II is not Tim Drake, not really. He's Jason Drake or Tim Todd, however you want to put it. But the Tim Drake in the DCAU is not the same as the Tim Drake in the comics. The whole idea of Drake being Robin in the comics wased based on the idea that he was Batman's equal. While he was not driven by the same things that Dick, Bruce, and Jason were he was a great detective (figured out Batman's identity all on his own, I seem to recall it being mentioned once or twice just how many had failed at trying to figure out who Bats was and failing). Further more Tim Drake in the DCAU seems so much more like Jason than Tim...

The Origin.
Lived with Bruce
Had a strong relationship with Dick, although this relationship existed between Tim and Dick, I believe Nightwing had more to do with Jason's becoming Robin than he was with Tim.
The events in Return of the Joker are similar to what happened to Jason
Treated the role like it was a game.
You know that I think of it, maybe there was something we didn't know going on behind the scenes. You see if the producers and such wanted to bring in a new Robin, well Jason would not be that person because he doesn't support the current comics since Jason's a character no longer used and Tim Drake at the moment had the mantle of Robin. And some people would be a little shakey about Jason Todd considering his fate. So maybe Tim in TNBA was really meant to be Jason, however was called Tim Drake to eliminate the baggage that came with the use of the character.

[Patrick Bateman]

I like all the well thought-out input in the thread. It was an interesting read and definately brings up very good points, which is exactly what I wanted. This was never a fanboy complaining that Tim was basically Jason, just curiosity as to why.

[TimTwoFace]

My biggest issue was that not enough care was taken in showing us the development of this BOY wonder. He's no more than ten or twelve, and yet he's suddenly thrust into a world of money and mansions and nightly rooftop battles? Hardly normal. Methinks Tim spent some time with Leslie Thompkins sorting it all out. And how does he feel about Two-Face? The man he knows KILLED his father? Even when he confronts him for the first time in costume in "SOTF", he's pretty happy-go-lucky about it. Maybe the writers tried to lighten to load there, as far as mental distress goes. I think they missed out on a lot of golden opportunities to make Tim out to be something other than a young Dick.

I agree. That was one totally untapped storyline that could have been ventured into. I don't know if Two-Face is the guy that bumped off Tim's dad, though - it's never really detailed, aside from him turning up in Metropolis River or some such. You can draw your own conclusions, but either way...

Really though, Tim Drake WAS Tim Drake through the entire run of TNBA, save for SINS OF THE FATHER. Not once was his not-so-legal past hinted at in later episodes; the only similarity he had then was the lack of parents. That's another thing I didn;t like so much, though I got used to it - all of Tim's pain virtually died away after SINS OF THE FATHER was resolved. I know he wouldn't carry the pain as long as Batman did (and still IS), but still...one episode?

-Tim

[Patrick Bateman]

Really though, Tim Drake WAS Tim Drake through the entire run of TNBA, save for SINS OF THE FATHER. Not once was his not-so-legal past hinted at in later episodes; the only similarity he had then was the lack of parents. Not true. Where was the computer geek? The maturity level far beyond his age? The kid who was a brilliant detective? It's not there. He was far much more Jason.

[Style]

Personally, I always sort-of wished they had officially used Jason. Yes, He was a controvertial character, and died in a controvertial way. But, that story was pivotal in the Batman story line, and added a lot to how Batman viewed his protaganists, and his mission. Now, when TNBA was originally on, I thought it would have been fine if it was Todd. True, fans would have anticipated a death story, but that's not neccessarily a bad thing. I would have shown Todd as a hot head and Batman as being reckless in having him on, and built up to the death story as sort of a grim inevitability. I think it would have been an interesting arc.

Ofcourse, seeing as how Robin, as Jason Todd-like as he might be, was using the Tim Drake name, I figured that would never happened. But Then, Timm and co surprised me by doing they're own version of the story in "ROTJ." True, it wasn't really the same story, but it was themematically similer. My regret was that because TNBA was gone by that point and ROTJ was the Final story in Batman Beyond, they never had a large opportunity to explore it.

I geuss what I'm saying is that they used the Tim name to avoid the controversial death in the family story, Which I felt was a mistake. Good stories shouldn't be avoided just because they are controversial. And I think that ROTJ would have had more wait if Tim Drake were allowed to be rightly called Jason Todd.

[HelloKittyKat]

It is my opinion that the lack of Jason Todd in the cartoon actually weakened the character of Tim Drake.

Then again, so did making him ten years old.

[MJC]

It is my opinion that the lack of Jason Todd in the cartoon actually weakened the character of Tim Drake.

Then again, so did making him ten years old.

I'm pretty sure he was thirteen, but I guess it doesn't matter.

[Blackwing]

i have a comment kind of relating to this "Robin" discussion...i noticed that in both TT and TAS, they give Dick a costume like Tims.

[Style]

i have a comment kind of relating to this "Robin" discussion...i noticed that in both TT and TAS, they give Dick a costume like Tims.

Well, the TT costume isn't so much like Tim's, but yeah, the B:TAS is. I think the costume switch is because the original Robin suit was sort-of looking antiquated, and was evoking feelings of the Adam west/Burt Ward show, and reminding people of Seduction of the Innocent's sentiment about Batman and Robin turning it's fans Homosexaul. And some parents wouldn't like imagery with that kind of overtones. (I'm not speaking against homosexual behavior, by the way, I'm just saying what the situation is.) So, they put Dick in the more updated Robin suit Tim uses. Which is why I'm kind of surprised that they had Dick in the classic outfit in that one Batman Adventures comic, but I geuss they are more free to do what they want.