Ron Zimmerman writing JLU??

[Grimlock]

This from a comic news website:

Ron Zimmerman has written for the upcoming season of Cartoon Network's Justice League Unlimited.

Anyone read Get Kraven? It was awful. I can't believe they let this guy anywhere near Justice League.

BTW, why doesn't it let me post the name of the website? Watch:
***************.com

See?

[Killtacular]

I thought they wanted to IMPROVE the scripts. Maybe I misheard and they actually said they wanted to POOP ON the scripts.

[Eddie G.]

Does anyone mind telling me some of his writing credits, I don't really know of this guy but am wondering why Grimlock and M. Wilson seem to despise him so much.

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,

Ron Zimmerman's Hollywood writing credits are available at the IMDb (http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0956782/). Connecting him to 7th Heaven is iffy, but The Michael Richards Show is not a good thing.

Comic book readers knew his name from a lot of Marvel comics, including the aforementioned Get Kraven mini-series, the laughably late Ultimate Adventures (which many people said wasn't bad, even if it came in nearly two years after the end of the "U-DECIDE" promotion), and an issue of Spider-Man's Tangled Web set in a supervillain bar (which I have and didn't think was too bad).

The nail in the coffin of his comic book career, however, was the Rawhide Kid mini-series, where he made the Kid a closeted gay man. I haven't read that one, and might read it some day if it was free, but the preview pages I saw didn't exactly fill me with faith.

In any event, until I see his name on screen or get confirmation from reputable sources, this is rumor and should be treated as such.

-- Ed/Ace

[Bird Boy]

BTW, why doesn't it let me post the name of the website? Watch:
***************.com

See?

Scroll to the bottom of The Watchtower (http://jl.toonzone.net) for the explanation.

-BB

[Eddie G.]

The nail in the coffin of his comic book career, however, was the Rawhide Kid mini-series, where he made the Kid a closeted gay man. I haven't read that one, and might read it some day if it was free, but the preview pages I saw didn't exactly fill me with faith.
Thank you for the info Ace, an no his screen writing is pretty iffy, and does scare me. Beyond that his career in comics is pretty poor if not horrible, especially the Rawhide Kid* which was just really just horrible and not just badly written but would offend anyone who has any taste or the smallest respect for homosexuals. So I suppose I'll have to agree with M. Wilson's comment.

*Unless you want to bash the book Ace I don't recomend RHK, the only point in it would be to join others in conversation as they bash it.

[DerekPowers]

ah come on guys, "vinnie and bobby" wasnt that bad, but hey, i love "married with children" so im biased! :D

[Sue]

I love that show too, Derek :evil: I've never read any of his work, but who knows, maybe he'll luck out this time.

[Samhaine]

BTW, why doesn't it let me post the name of the website? Watch:
***************.comAh, those were fun days.

[Grimlock]

Howdy,

Ron Zimmerman's Hollywood writing credits are available at the IMDb (http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0956782/). Connecting him to 7th Heaven is iffy, but The Michael Richards Show is not a good thing.

Comic book readers knew his name from a lot of Marvel comics, including the aforementioned Get Kraven mini-series, the laughably late Ultimate Adventures (which many people said wasn't bad, even if it came in nearly two years after the end of the "U-DECIDE" promotion), and an issue of Spider-Man's Tangled Web set in a supervillain bar (which I have and didn't think was too bad).


Yeah, the supervillain bar story was by far his best, but it was leaps and bounds above everything else he's done. You're right though, it is a rumor, just hopefully not a true one.

[Grimlock]

Scroll to the bottom of The Watchtower (http://jl.toonzone.net/) for the explanation.

-BB
Done and done. Thanks for the info.

[Karkull]

Action was an awesome show. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Merlin Missy]

I wouldn't be too concerned. If I recall correctly, the Way It Works is as follows:

The staff gets together and discusses what they're doing this season: whose characters get developed, what the overall story arc will be, whom they need to make sure appears. Then, the season gets broken down into individual episodes, mostly pitched by the staff. An outside person may pitch, but it's unlikely to be used unless it's a really good idea, or it's someone the staff really admires. Outline summaries, complete with specific details to include to advance the arc, are written for each of the episodes, and then the episodes are assigned. Again, most of the assignments are to writers on-staff, with exceptions made for talented outsiders. Once the episode drafts are completed, they're brought back in for revisions. Edit a scene here, add an important drop-in hint there, go for final review before the head producer, and then start storyboarding, dialogue-recording, and so on. It's not going to be Ron Zimmerman calling up B.T. and the rest and telling them "I've written this episode for your series" and they produce it untouched. While episodes certainly retain the flavor and storytelling of their writers, they also tend to have the same feel as the rest of the series because otherwise it'd be an anthology.

If someone has more details and/or a better notion of what goes on, please feel free to correct me. I'm going off the production style for Buffy, which was amazingly similar to the production we did on a group-written story series.

MM:)

[Grimlock]

Action was an awesome show. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
And V.I.P. was an awful show, so no benefit from me.

[Grimlock]

I wouldn't be too concerned. If I recall correctly, the Way It Works is as follows:

The staff gets together and discusses what they're doing this season: whose characters get developed, what the overall story arc will be, whom they need to make sure appears. Then, the season gets broken down into individual episodes, mostly pitched by the staff. An outside person may pitch, but it's unlikely to be used unless it's a really good idea, or it's someone the staff really admires. Outline summaries, complete with specific details to include to advance the arc, are written for each of the episodes, and then the episodes are assigned. Again, most of the assignments are to writers on-staff, with exceptions made for talented outsiders. Once the episode drafts are completed, they're brought back in for revisions. Edit a scene here, add an important drop-in hint there, go for final review before the head producer, and then start storyboarding, dialogue-recording, and so on. It's not going to be Ron Zimmerman calling up B.T. and the rest and telling them "I've written this episode for your series" and they produce it untouched. While episodes certainly retain the flavor and storytelling of their writers, they also tend to have the same feel as the rest of the series because otherwise it'd be an anthology.

If someone has more details and/or a better notion of what goes on, please feel free to correct me. I'm going off the production style for Buffy, which was amazingly similar to the production we did on a group-written story series.

MM:)
Very interesting, i guess i never really knew how the show was written. This makes a lot of sense though, hopefully it'll turn out to be a good episode.

[Simpler Simon]

I wouldn't be too concerned. If I recall correctly, the Way It Works is as follows:

(snip!)

If someone has more details and/or a better notion of what goes on, please feel free to correct me. I'm going off the production style for Buffy, which was amazingly similar to the production we did on a group-written story series.

MM:)
That's true what you just said, but each individual writer still brings their own sense of style, pacing, characterization, etc. Some write merely adequate dialogue - others write memorable, character-defining dialogue. I don't know what the time frame for JLU production is, but it's also possible that since they're pushing for an August premiere, season 3 may not have the same tight quality control afforded season 2. It's not to say the team's getting sloppy and anything goes, but the little touches that made season 2 rip might not be there.

In any case, I've never heard of this guy, and even with all the links to what he's done, I'm still not familiar with his work. But who knows, some people are more effective in different storytelling mediums.

[b.t.]

man, you guys are just LOOKING for reasons why season three is gonna suck, aren't ya? :rolleyes: (as someone for whom the glass is perpetually half-empty, i can relate, but still, C'MON...)

for the record, merlin missy is mostly on-target vis-a-vis our script process...also, for the record, we brought ron in to pitch specifically because of his TANGLED WEB one-shot, which we all thought was terrific...for various reasons, ron was only able to do the outline, at which point we brought in TNBA, B BEYOND and SUPERMAN alumnus bob goodman to write the actual script...he did a great job, and i have every reason to anticipate that it's gonna be an excellent episode.

so there. :D

[Nick K.]

Season 3 will be good. I believe in the power of the JL creative team. Soon well start calling it JLU, and Im changing my name to The JLU Kid! :D

[EJill34]

man, you guys are just LOOKING for reasons why season three is gonna suck, aren't ya? :rolleyes: (as someone for whom the glass is perpetually half-empty, i can relate, but still, C'MON...)

for the record, merlin missy is mostly on-target vis-a-vis our script process...also, for the record, we brought ron in to pitch specifically because of his TANGLED WEB one-shot, which we all thought was terrific...for various reasons, ron was only able to do the outline, at which point we brought in TNBA, B BEYOND and SUPERMAN alumnus bob goodman to write the actual script...he did a great job, and i have every reason to anticipate that it's gonna be an excellent episode.

so there. :D
And we have to wait till August? Man, this is a bummer. I'm sure JLU will wreck ass.

[Marvel_Knight]

man, you guys are just LOOKING for reasons why season three is gonna suck, aren't ya? :rolleyes: (as someone for whom the glass is perpetually half-empty, i can relate, but still, C'MON...)

for the record, merlin missy is mostly on-target vis-a-vis our script process...also, for the record, we brought ron in to pitch specifically because of his TANGLED WEB one-shot, which we all thought was terrific...for various reasons, ron was only able to do the outline, at which point we brought in TNBA, B BEYOND and SUPERMAN alumnus bob goodman to write the actual script...he did a great job, and i have every reason to anticipate that it's gonna be an excellent episode.

so there. :D
Only an outline. GOOD. Unless the story was good (which we'll find out in awhile). What were Bob Goodman's credits? Anyway, I don't really like Ron Zimmerman, but I'll give 'em a chance.

[Simpler Simon]

What were Bob Goodman's credits?
According to World's Finest:

Knight Time
Blast From the Past
Growing Pains (w/Paul Dini)
Legends of the Dark Knight (w/Bruce Timm)
Double Talk
Black Out
Spellbound
Ascension

That's just the first few I managed to find. I'm sure there's more. Not only is there not a stinker in the bunch, but all of those are high points of their respective series'. I think the script is in safe hands. :)

[screw on head]

I'm not too familiar with any of Zimmerman's work, and despite the shockingly unanimous reaction to his work, I think it's safe to say his "outline" is in safe hands.

I've always enjoyed Robert Goodman creditted episodes, and I'm glad to hear his name in the ADCU again. I've always remembered seeing Robert for his credit, so I'm refraining from saying Bob Goodman :p . Quite the array of writers tallying up here, sounds like JLU's got quite a pool of talent writing scripts, it all sounds good to me...

[b.t.]

hey, nice avatar, screw on head...is that herb trimpe?

[Maxie Zeus]

If I recall correctly, the Way It Works is as follows

And by an astonishing coincidence, *coughplugcough* Toon Zone has just published an interview with Stan Berkowitz (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=108970), part of which deals with the process of writing for Justice League.


And we have to wait till August? Man, this is a bummer. I'm sure JLU will wreck ass.

It's like that old joke about the bad food in small portions, eh, GMahler? "Season 3 is gonna suck!" "Yeah, and we have to wait until August to see it, too!"

[screw on head]

hey, nice avatar, screw on head...is that herb trimpe?
lol. You mean the artist, Herb Trimpe? It does have that moody Trimpe feel come to think of it, but actually, it should look familiar. Swiped it from The World's Greatest Comics Magazine, hope you don't mind :D. It's a nice atmospheric shot of Mr. Fantastic, made for me being a marvel mod now. Though, looking at it, it does remind me of Patrick McGoohan of "The Prisoner" fame too...

[Fone Bone]

Robert Goodman also created The Zeta Project spun off from his episode on Batman Beyond "Zeta". If he's coming back to the DCAU that gives me hope that Batman Beyond and Zeta might appear someday. He's always wanted to finish "The Zeta Project". I'm really glad he's back. He's a very talented writer.

[b.t.]

Robert Goodman also created The Zeta Project spun off from his episode on Batman Beyond "Zeta". If he's coming back to the DCAU that gives me hope that Batman Beyond and Zeta might appear someday. He's always wanted to finish "The Zeta Project". I'm really glad he's back. He's a very talented writer.

yes, bob --er, *ahem* -- robert IS a very talented writer, we're very happy to have him writing for us again, and at the top of his game...aside from "hawk and dove", he's written two more jlu scripts so far, with hopefully more to come...

as for satisfying your --beg pardon!-- zeta jones, all i can say is...

(chuckles mysteriously).... :evil:

[Killtacular]

yes, bob --er, *ahem* -- robert IS a very talented writer, we're very happy to have him writing for us again, and at the top of his game...aside from "hawk and dove", he's written two more jlu scripts so far, with hopefully more to come...

as for satisfying your --beg pardon!-- zeta jones, all i can say is...

(chuckles mysteriously).... :evil:
Well, while you're here, BT..

Is Curt Geda working on JLU? I noticed him creditted on Batwoman and I know that X-Men Evolution was cancelled... so I hoped this meant he had returned to WBA for good. Please let it be so.

Bob Goodman is another prize catch.

Is Paul Dini a full-time writer for JLU now or is he only doing a couple of episodes? I know Static Shock and Duck Dodgers probably take up a good portion of his time, so I didn't want to jump to conclusions.

[b.t.]

Is Curt Geda working on JLU? I noticed him creditted on Batwoman and I know that X-Men Evolution was cancelled... so I hoped this meant he had returned to WBA for good. Please let it be so.

Bob Goodman is another prize catch.

Is Paul Dini a full-time writer for JLU now or is he only doing a couple of episodes? I know Static Shock and Duck Dodgers probably take up a good portion of his time, so I didn't want to jump to conclusions.


last i heard, curt was doing freelance storyboards on scooby...but that was a while ago...yep, he's an excellent director, terrific board artist....maybe someday...

dini's much too busy with all his various projects to do more than the occasional script for jlu, alas...we got one script out of him for season 3, hope to get at least one more for season 4...

so, sorry to disappoint you...hey, wait, didn't you HATE his "comfort and joy" script?(maybe you're NOT disappointed....):confused:

[Grimlock]

man, you guys are just LOOKING for reasons why season three is gonna suck, aren't ya? :rolleyes: (as someone for whom the glass is perpetually half-empty, i can relate, but still, C'MON...)

for the record, merlin missy is mostly on-target vis-a-vis our script process...also, for the record, we brought ron in to pitch specifically because of his TANGLED WEB one-shot, which we all thought was terrific...for various reasons, ron was only able to do the outline, at which point we brought in TNBA, B BEYOND and SUPERMAN alumnus bob goodman to write the actual script...he did a great job, and i have every reason to anticipate that it's gonna be an excellent episode.

so there. :D
I've actually loved almost all the JL episodes, Mr. Timm, and i have very little to complain about :). I think these comments may better be directed toward one Matt Wilson's way ;).

Sorry for sounding negative, but other than Ron's tangled web issue, i have not been very impressed. But i'll wait and give it a fair chance.

You guys amazed me with season 2...here's hoping season 3 is just as good or better.

[Salvor]

man, you guys are just LOOKING for reasons why season three is gonna suck, aren't ya? :rolleyes:Yeah! Shame on you guys!! :D (did that sound believable or what?)

Anyway, personally, I think any good writer can come up with a bad script once in a while, and vice versa (any bad writer etc). Hilary Bader did some pretty average scripts when she was working on BB but once in a while, she'd come up with a true gem like Meltdown, considered by many to be one of the best Freeze episodes ever. So, I don't know who this Ron Zimmerman guy is, but I'm pretty sure he could do a nice job.

[Killtacular]

so, sorry to disappoint you...hey, wait, didn't you HATE his "comfort and joy" script?(maybe you're NOT disappointed....):confused:
Well, I'm always willing to believe there are certain circumstances that result in a somewhat lackluster script. I don't think that Dini's track record has been spotty enough for me to feel he's truly lost something. At Duck Dodgers, his material is mangled by godawful directors. At Static Shock, half the episodes seem like Kids WB-mandated "sweeps week" junk that noone would really enjoy doing. I've heard plenty about idiotic executives making these kind of decisions.

But yeah, I didn't like Comfort and Joy. Of course I've always been annoyed by holiday specials that are too cheery and lukewarm. I liked Holiday Knights though.

[ClockStomper]

I'm glad Zimmerman won't actually be scripting, since his work is terrible.

I thought Paul had a better grip on the JL member's powers than any of the other JL writers did for the first season and a half. GL actually using his ring as something other than a protective aura and ray blaster was nice.

[maxnugget]

According to World's Finest:

Knight Time
Blast From the Past
Growing Pains (w/Paul Dini)
Legends of the Dark Knight (w/Bruce Timm)
Double Talk
Black Out
Spellbound
Ascension


Wow. Can't argue with that...I especially love Ascension...an awesome episode.


One thing that kind of bugs me is that lately whenever Dini writes a script for the DCAU shows, specifically for TNBA and JL, it seems like he writes mostly comedy or light-hearted episodes (especially ones involving his favorite villain and villainess)...and when he's not doing that, he's doing comedy series like Duck Dodgers, etc...which I guess means perhaps he likes writing those types of episodes...but he's written some really tremendous more-serious-tone episodes in the past, and I really want some more of those. :bosko:

So I guess I just wish Mr. Dini preferred writing serious scripts as much as I like watching serious episodes written by him. :)

[Fone Bone]

yes, bob --er, *ahem* -- robert IS a very talented writer, we're very happy to have him writing for us again, and at the top of his game...aside from "hawk and dove", he's written two more jlu scripts so far, with hopefully more to come...

as for satisfying your --beg pardon!-- zeta jones, all i can say is...

(chuckles mysteriously).... :evil:
Your mysterious chuckle cheered me up greatly. I am a huge fan of yours and I believe JLU will be excellent. You've done too much good stuff to think otherwise.

I'd like to PM you a message about how I can get into the cartooning field. Is there any way I can do that?

[DerekPowers]

dini's much too busy with all his various projects to do more than the occasional script for jlu, alas...we got one script out of him for season 3, hope to get at least one more for season 4...

so, sorry to disappoint you...hey, wait, didn't you HATE his "comfort and joy" script?(maybe you're NOT disappointed....):confused:

i know that was directed at matt, but i also hated "comfort and joy". perhaps hated is too strong a word, but it was just, i dont know, corny? predictable? sort of seems like paul dini's latest writing assignments for the dcau have been really trite and just, cranked out.

like, the stuff he did with the crossovers in static shock. come on. AND the "chase me" short at the begining of batwoman, that was like the quality of a gotham girls web toon (hey nothing against gg), but i expect more from paul dini.

perhaps its better he's not a full time writer on JLU, if thats what he gives us. im sure its because he's real busy, but i dont like to cheapen his greatness with those kinds of episodes. it seems after rotj, it was all down hill, although didnt he sort of write or work on "the brave and the bold" which was really good, imo. peace.

[Killtacular]

it seems after rotj, it was all down hill, although didnt he sort of write or work on "the brave and the bold" which was really good, imo. peace.
I believe Dini pitched the story, and then Fogel (?) wrote the script.

[Maxie Zeus]

Your mysterious chuckle cheered me up greatly.

Yeah, but he's using the same :evil: icon there that he used when he put me and Salvor onto his revenge list! So I don't know if I want that hint-chuckle-icon to be serious! :D

[maxnugget]

i know that was directed at matt, but i also hated "comfort and joy". perhaps hated is too strong a word, but it was just, i dont know, corny? predictable? sort of seems like paul dini's latest writing assignments for the dcau have been really trite and just, cranked out.

like, the stuff he did with the crossovers in static shock. come on. AND the "chase me" short at the begining of batwoman, that was like the quality of a gotham girls web toon (hey nothing against gg), but i expect more from paul dini.

perhaps its better he's not a full time writer on JLU, if thats what he gives us. im sure its because he's real busy, but i dont like to cheapen his greatness with those kinds of episodes. it seems after rotj, it was all down hill, although didnt he sort of write or work on "the brave and the bold" which was really good, imo. peace.

Speaking as someone who likes "Comfort and Joy," I think you have to admit that, though you may not like the mood or feel or subject of the episode, it is a well-done episode in terms of story, pacing, dialogue, characterization, etc. I certainly wouldn't compare it to Dini's Static Shock episode, which, yeah, they were pretty ho-hum I think. When I first watched "Comfort and Joy" my initial reaction was "Yep, Dini's still got it!"

Perhaps you, like me, are just wishing he'd return to writing the more serious, dramatic episodes that he was so awesome at in the past but hasn't done since ROTJ.

[DerekPowers]

Speaking as someone who likes "Comfort and Joy," I think you have to admit that, though you may not like the mood or feel or subject of the episode, it is a well-done episode in terms of story, pacing, dialogue, characterization, etc. I certainly wouldn't compare it to Dini's Static Shock episode, which, yeah, they were pretty ho-hum I think. When I first watched "Comfort and Joy" my initial reaction was "Yep, Dini's still got it!"

Perhaps you, like me, are just wishing he'd return to writing the more serious, dramatic episodes that he was so awesome at in the past but hasn't done since ROTJ.

actually, no, i dont mind more light episodes from time to time. i think it was formulaic, predictable, and a lot of stuff just seemed forced. like the end where jonn is singing in his alien form, it just seemed forced, like a forced sentimental moment. and the characterization was all off too, imo. the ultrahumanite was all wrong in that episode. everything just seemed really predictable. it was OBVIOUSLY a "christman special", if you know what i mean. like, if i were to write a spoof of a typical xmas cartoon special, with the JL characters, thats what i'd write. and for all the sentimentality, it seemed empty.

you know, me and my brother actually argue about this from time to time. he loves that episode. :rolleyes: but he likes it BECAUSE it was a typical christmas special, which he thinks is cool in a pop-culture, retro sort of way. i just dont get it. JL is not that kind of show. peace.

[Grimlock]

actually, no, i dont mind more light episodes from time to time. i think it was formulaic, predictable, and a lot of stuff just seemed forced. like the end where jonn is singing in his alien form, it just seemed forced, like a forced sentimental moment. and the characterization was all off too, imo. the ultrahumanite was all wrong in that episode. everything just seemed really predictable. it was OBVIOUSLY a "christman special", if you know what i mean. like, if i were to write a spoof of a typical xmas cartoon special, with the JL characters, thats what i'd write. and for all the sentimentality, it seemed empty.


Actually i found j'onn singing to be very appropriate. The purpose of that particular story was that j'onn didn't know the meaning of christmas and felt out of place, but by the end, he found he was able to recognize why humans celebrated christmas and even gave the kents a gift of his own. I don't think it was forced at all.

I agree, the ultrahumanite was a bit out of character, but i think dini was trying to show that deep down the ultrahumanite does have appreciation for humans.

As far as cheesey christmas specials go, i thought comfort and joy was pretty good. I could have done without the farting duck though :).

[Fone Bone]

Maxie Zeus suggested I try asking this on a public forum so here goes. My name is Matt Zimmer and I want to be a cartoonist. Is there any advice you can give me on breaking into the comics business? I can't afford art school. How about self-publishing like Jeff Smith? What does that involve? I know you're not exactly independent comic guy but you love Joss Whedon and are a personal hero of mine. What could it hurt to try to get your input?

I'll post some of my stories in the fan-fic section soon and I'll see if I can show my drawings on The Drawing Board.

P.S. I'd love to see you on The Entertainment Board's "Angel" talkbacks espescially since it's ending soon.

[Doomsday]

Maxie Zeus suggested I try asking this on a public forum so here goes. My name is Matt Zimmer and I want to be a cartoonist. Is there any advice you can give me on breaking into the comics business? I can't afford art school. How about self-publishing like Jeff Smith? What does that involve? I know you're not exactly independent comic guy but you love Joss Whedon and are a personal hero of mine. What could it hurt to try to get your input?

I'll post some of my stories in the fan-fic section soon and I'll see if I can show my drawings on The Drawing Board.

P.S. I'd love to see you on The Entertainment Board's "Angel" talkbacks espescially since it's ending soon. Fone bone, I have no problem with you asking this question, its great your looking for help, but the thread needs to keep in track. So you can have more people helping you out make a new thread with the same question like Questions on being a cartoonist.
Now back on track, I am not afraid that the writting will be weak but the plots themselfs.

[Nick K.]

Fone bone, I have no problem with you asking this question, its great your looking for help, but the thread needs to keep in track. So you can have more people helping you out make a new thread with the same question like Questions on being a cartoonist.
Now back on track, I am not afraid that the writting will be weak but the plots themselfs.

This thread is an Off-Topic thread, everyone is doing it, not fair to just single out Fone Bone. Let him do his thing.

[Doomsday]

This thread is an Off-Topic thread, everyone is doing it, not fair to just single out Fone Bone. Let him do his thing. I'm just saying that so he can get all the help he can get, not because its off topic. More people can see it if it is in its own thread. Anyways isn't Paul Dini also doing that new Kypto dog kids show, not sure of the name. So its no wonder he doesn't have much time to work with JLU. And is Static Shock on its last season or does he have more to come? I don't know why people are afraid of JLU stinking, just look at the people making it. They haven't disappointed us at. I know it sounds like it can be bad, with more characters, but they can pull it off.

[Maxie Zeus]

I think we should leave it to the DCAU mods to decide if it's off-topic or not; anyway I'm not sure there is an appropriate place to ask such stuff. But b.t. does not take PMs or emails, so I merely pointed out to Fone Bone that he was likely only to get a reply -- if reply he gets -- in a public thread. Of course, it's up to b.t. as to whether he wants to answer the question. If he does, then it can be split out into its own thread. If not, well, no harm done, I hope.

Of course, this is the sort of thing that is bound to happen when someone like b.t. gets involved. (I say that meaning no disrespect to b.t., either.) Topics are likely to wander as people seize on stuff he says.

[DerekPowers]

P.S. I'd love to see you on The Entertainment Board's "Angel" talkbacks espescially since it's ending soon.


at the high risk of being pumulled by angel and buffy fans, why on god's green earth would you think b. t. watches "angel"?? :D :D

seriously, im half kidding, but half serious. oh god, you know, i really have to stop this. ive been responding way too much since i saw b. t. posting today. this is the first thread that im actually aware of who b. t. is. i just found it out a couple weeks ago, and now that i see him pop up again, im overdoing it. hehe, i know, but im all gitty. it will pass, dont worry. :bosko:

but seriously, i never got the whole angel/buffy obbsession. but this is coming from a hardcore Xena fan, so go figure. peace.

[b.t.]

at the high risk of being pumulled by angel and buffy fans, why on god's green earth would you think b. t. watches "angel"?? :D :D

because i DO (i mentioned it to f. b. in another thread)....don't get me started about joss whedon, i'll be here all night....

are we officially off-topic now?

[Nick K.]

because i DO (i mentioned it to f. b. in another thread)....don't get me started about joss whedon, i'll be here all night....

are we officially off-topic now?


This thread is an Off-Topic thread, everyone is doing it, not fair to just single out Fone Bone. Let him do his thing.

Yes. It most certainly is. If you watch Angel, then... you miss The O.C.! :eek:

[Doomsday]

because i DO (i mentioned it to f. b. in another thread)....don't get me started about joss whedon, i'll be here all night....

are we officially off-topic now? Yeah but now that we are off topic, we can just stay off topic now. Like JL Kid said, this thread is about anything really. It has been off topic for awhile, the thread is more writters who have wrote JL episodes than just this one Ron guy. I don't know this guy but from what I heard from you people, it sounds like he hardly done anything good. So maybe the JLU episode he writes will be his first great thing. One can hope, can they?

Edit: JL kid, you beat me to what I was going to say.

[Nick K.]

Yeah but now that we are off topic, we can just stay off topic now. Like JL Kid said, this thread is about anything really. It has been off topic for awhile, the thread is more writters who have wrote JL episodes than just this one Ron guy. I don't know this guy but from what I heard from you people, it sounds like he hardly done anything good. So maybe the JLU episode he writes will be his first great thing. One can hope, can they?

Edit: JL kid, you beat me to what I was going to say.

Should've had your gun out the holster partner... :cool:



Do you think they'll close this thread soon?

[William C. Maune]

Do you think they'll close this thread soon?

As I don't see any DCAU mods on this board at the moment, I'll step in and say, it's more likely if the discussion just talks about how the thread is off topic and whether or not it should be closed. Just go with it and don't worry too much. Considering who is posting in the thread, I don't think the mods will care too much if the thread is off topic. They can always split the thread if necessary. You guys are the luckiest board I've ever seen. When you have an opportunity like this it is most important to enjoy it. As long as everyone acts within reason, it should be all good. Finally, I'm not a DCAU mod and so I could be completely wrong, but that's my take.

[Maxie Zeus]

FWIW, I agree with Maune. (Really, dude, you need a screen name :D) We're just talking about writers and JLU in general, now that b.t. has spilled all sorts of stuff about who will be writing for them.

Gotta say I'm really glad to hear about some of these names. Few of them are familiar to me, and I don't mean to diss old hands like Fogel and Berkowitz, but I'm excited to see some variety. Let's shake things up and see what falls out! :)

[b.t.]

since we're so off-topic, can i just say that peanut butter and orange marmalade sandwiches are my favorite late-night snack?

[b.t.]

Maxie Zeus suggested I try asking this on a public forum so here goes. My name is Matt Zimmer and I want to be a cartoonist. Is there any advice you can give me on breaking into the comics business? I can't afford art school. How about self-publishing like Jeff Smith? What does that involve? I know you're not exactly independent comic guy but you love Joss Whedon and are a personal hero of mine. What could it hurt to try to get your input?

well, f.b., i'm afraid i don't have any magic solution to the "how do i break into comics" question.....i never went to art school myself, taught myself how to draw by copying/swiping from my favorite comics artists, and just drawing all the damn time...considering how god-awful my work was at the time, i was lucky enough to actually get work in the animation business, so i eventually did get a lot of on-the-job training...i dunno what to tell you, draw as much as you can, as often as you can....study the artists that you like, learn to analyze their work (WHY is their work great?)...there are all kinds of good "how-to" books available at most art supply stores, and even most chain book-stores (barnes and noble, borders, etc.)...the late great john buscema's "how to draw comics the marvel way" is an excellent overall fundemental text , it covers all the basics (still in print, i think...if not, it should be easy enough to find on ebay or bookfinder.com)

when you get to the point where you really think your work is good enough, send samples (xeroxes only, NEVER send originals -- i know that seems obvious, but boy, you'd be surprised) to the various comics companies, and cross your fingers.....

i don't know the first thing about self-publishing, sorry....i can't even think of who to refer you to on that subject....anyone else out there got any idea?

[Grimlock]

since we're so off-topic, can i just say that peanut butter and orange marmalade sandwiches are my favorite late-night snack?
Then we can also talk about why people are posting to message boards at 3:21 am when they have class at 9:30 tomorrow ;). Damn you, insomnia.

[Grimlock]

well, f.b., i'm afraid i don't have any magic solution to the "how do i break into comics" question.....
b.t., as long as you're here so late, just wanted to plug my hopes that you guys'll keep having batman as a prominent member of the league in the show. I think you guys have used him excellently, keep up the good work, and please don't take away any of his screen time :).

[Stu]

Well, off topic as we are, the thread is no real danger of getting closed. Everyone is behaving themselves...so, continue to do so. :)

However...any one of that spoils Angel for those of us in the UK that haven't seen them all yet...well, my wrath shall indeed be terrible to behold. :evil:

Amazing Spidey
Still shocked that Fred has turned blue! :eek:

[Fone Bone]

well, f.b., i'm afraid i don't have any magic solution to the "how do i break into comics" question.....i never went to art school myself, taught myself how to draw by copying/swiping from my favorite comics artists, and just drawing all the damn time...considering how god-awful my work was at the time, i was lucky enough to actually get work in the animation business, so i eventually did get a lot of on-the-job training...i dunno what to tell you, draw as much as you can, as often as you can....study the artists that you like, learn to analyze their work (WHY is their work great?)...there are all kinds of good "how-to" books available at most art supply stores, and even most chain book-stores (barnes and noble, borders, etc.)...the late great john buscema's "how to draw comics the marvel way" is an excellent overall fundemental text , it covers all the basics (still in print, i think...if not, it should be easy enough to find on ebay or bookfinder.com)

when you get to the point where you really think your work is good enough, send samples (xeroxes only, NEVER send originals -- i know that seems obvious, but boy, you'd be surprised) to the various comics companies, and cross your fingers.....

i don't know the first thing about self-publishing, sorry....i can't even think of who to refer you to on that subject....anyone else out there got any idea?Believe it or not, I'm not upset there is no magical solution. I just wanted some input from one of my idols. I am very grateful for your reply. Thank you.:)

Angel rocks!

Edit: About self-publishing, screw on head PMed me directions to a very useful website. Thank you in public.

Edit 2: I'm glad Ron Zimmerman is writing for JLU. He has a very great last name.;)

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,


...the late great john buscema's "how to draw comics the marvel way" is an excellent overall fundemental text , it covers all the basics (still in print, i think...if not, it should be easy enough to find on ebay or bookfinder.com)

Yup, it's still in print (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671530771/qid%3D1082638141/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/102-1481014-5128128). (Buy from that link and TZ gets a referral fee)

Fone Bone, for what it's worth, Dwayne McDuffie has another take on how to break into comics on his website (http://www.dwaynemcduffie.com/), done in his caustically humorous fashion. Click on "Opinions" and search down a bit -- it's in the "To Be Continued..." essays. While you're there, seek out the essay where he finds out that Justice Clarence Thomas is a fan of Icon.

This page also has a few "how I broke into the biz" stories (http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/panel/106798017986867.htm), including one from Terry Moore (of Strangers in Paradise (http://www.strangersinparadise.com/)) on self-publishing. Gail Simone got started via her humor column -- she still has a day job owning and running a hair salon (tho' not for much longer, from what I hear). I also know Mark Waid and Kurt Busiek broke into the biz through being letter column hacks and fanzine editors. Googling for how to break into comics (http://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+break+into+comics&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8) turns up a few other articles.

Scott McCloud answers it in his FAQ (http://www.scottmccloud.com/home/faq/faq-window/faq.html) in an amusing way.

Dave Sim did a guide to self-publishing, which is out of print but probably still available on eBay. If anybody'd know about self-publishing successfully, it'd probably be him. Jeff Smith and Terry Moore demonstrate that you can also do it without turning into a psychotic, raving, misanthropic lunatic, too :).

-- Ed/Ace

[DerekPowers]

because i DO (i mentioned it to f. b. in another thread)....don't get me started about joss whedon, i'll be here all night....

are we officially off-topic now?

thats cool. hehe, yeah, my bad.

anyway, what WAS the topic to this thread anyway??

to FUN BONE, i'd definately second Ace the Bathound's suggestion to pick up a copy of "Understanding Comics", by Scott McCloud. wow, what a book. And the sequal, "Reinventing Comics" is really good too.

Hey, B. T., just out of curiosity, since stan berkowitz mentined what toons he watches on tv, what cartoons do YOU watch on tv? what do you think are the best cartoons airing on tv right now? i personally like JL (obviously), ppg, i really liked the new he-man show (i thought the animation, designs, and art direction were great), and samurai jack (an obvious one). out of all the new cartoons on tv, i think JL is by far the best (for its design theory alone), and im not just saying that, whenever i talk cartoons with my friends thats the shpeal (sp?) i give them. any suggestions?

peace.

[b.t.]

b.t., as long as you're here so late, just wanted to plug my hopes that you guys'll keep having batman as a prominent member of the league in the show.

not to worry.

[DerekPowers]

not to worry.

eh hem....yes!

anyway, about that, can u give us alittle insight into what brought about the changes we'll be seeing in JLU. some people on the boards feel its because of the cn 52 episode deal, and JL's time was up, so to keep it going u had to sort of make it a "new" show to get around it. then there's the theory that it was voluntary on your part, to evolve and improve the show, sort of like btas-tnba (the way i remember it, it was your choice to re-vamp and re-design the show, you COULD have just made more btas, but wanted to evolve and improve it, atleast thats how i always understood it).

then there's the theory that its alittle from column a, alittle from column b...

plus, in the cn press release about JLU (i dont know if they call those press releases, the little official blurbs they put out), they said there will be a "bold new look" to the show. any truth to that?

peace.

[b.t.]

Hey, B. T., just out of curiosity, since stan berkowitz mentined what toons he watches on tv, what cartoons do YOU watch on tv? what do you think are the best cartoons airing on tv right now?

yeesh, we're gonna open THAT can of worms, are we?
ah well, here goes... :sweat:


unfortunately, i don't watch much tv at all...CSI and the joss whedon shows are about it...i've been digging DEADWOOD so far, too, though i'm falling behind on that...as for cartoons, obviously, TITANS is a fave...SAMURAI JACK i enjoy for the stellar art direction, it's one of the most beautiful-looking cartoons ever made, i'm looking forward to the dvd....i liked the first batch of CLONE WARS cartoons, but unfortunately missed the second set...the few eps of PPG i've seen i've enjoyed....i flat-out ADORED NEON GENESIS EVANGELION, but haven't gotten around to watching my FLCL dvd yet....

...and that's about it....

[b.t.]

eh hem....yes!

anyway, about that, can u give us alittle insight into what brought about the changes we'll be seeing in JLU. some people on the boards feel its because of the cn 52 episode deal, and JL's time was up, so to keep it going u had to sort of make it a "new" show to get around it. then there's the theory that it was voluntary on your part, to evolve and improve the show, sort of like btas-tnba (the way i remember it, it was your choice to re-vamp and re-design the show, you COULD have just made more btas, but wanted to evolve and improve it, atleast thats how i always understood it).

then there's the theory that its alittle from column a, alittle from column b...

plus, in the cn press release about JLU (i dont know if they call those press releases, the little official blurbs they put out), they said there will be a "bold new look" to the show. any truth to that?

peace.

it IS "a little from column a, a little from column b"...it wasn't nearly as "desperate for a pick-up" as your first suggestion indicates (don't worry, no offense taken)...cn picked up seasons 3 and 4 with the request that we "re-brand" the show somewhat...honestly, i think they would have been happy if we'd just changed the title...it was totally our idea to re-vamp the show into its current configuration...we just figured, "we've done two whole seasons of 'traditional' JL, now let's try something different"...fortunately, cn loved the proposed changes and here we are...

re: the "bold new look"....it's nothing as radical as the TNBA re-vamp, but we HAVE tinkered with the art direction a bit...the first two eps are in so far, and literally EVERYONE who's seen them has commented that the new eps look "richer"...

[Salvor]

Now let's just hope the "richer" art of the episodes will have less CG and more inspired backgrounds like the ones STAS or TNBA used to have.

lol everyone seems to have forgotten poor Ron in the process!! :D

[Knight]

it IS "a little from column a, a little from column b"...it wasn't nearly as "desperate for a pick-up" as your first suggestion indicates (don't worry, no offense taken)...cn picked up seasons 3 and 4 with the request that we "re-brand" the show somewhat...honestly, i think they would have been happy if we'd just changed the title...it was totally our idea to re-vamp the show into its current configuration...we just figured, "we've done two whole seasons of 'traditional' JL, now let's try something different"...fortunately, cn loved the proposed changes and here we are...

re: the "bold new look"....it's nothing as radical as the TNBA re-vamp, but we HAVE tinkered with the art direction a bit...the first two eps are in so far, and literally EVERYONE who's seen them has commented that the new eps look "richer"...
I have to say the name and other changes were something I was curious about and you answered very nicely.I wonder if this means that every few years we are going to get a new name for the show? Will it one day be renamed "Justice League Elite" or The New Adventures Of The Justice League"? Hopefully there is enough juice to push it 5, 6, or even 7 more seasons.

[b.t.]

Now let's just hope the "richer" art of the episodes will have less CG and more inspired backgrounds like the ones STAS or TNBA used to have.

lol everyone seems to have forgotten poor Ron in the process!! :D

well, cgi vehicles are here to stay, so, sorry but you're just gonna have to live with it...i avoided it as long as i could, but at a certain point i got tired of beating my head against the wall...bottom-line is, NOBODY wants to be animating vehicles by hand, and the overseas companies had been begging us to switch to 3d vehicles for years...ultimately i realized the writing was on the wall, that it was gonna happen sooner or later...i won't claim that i'm 100% happy with the 3d stuff yet, but we (and they) are never gonna get better at it unless we keep at it, so even though we're still on the learning curve, they ARE getting better, MUCH....the new digital javelin looks pretty damn sweet...

funny you should mention the backgrounds: we've actually dusted off the old superman and tnba metropolis and gotham city designs for jlu (i missed 'em too).....

now let's get this thread back on track, shall we? personally i've always liked mr. zimmerman's stuff..."hey mr. tambourine man" is one of my favorite songs...

..what's that?....oh, RON zimmerman!

silly me....

seriously, i do like his stuff quite a bit...wish he'd finish that "ultimate adventures" story...don't guess it'll ever happen, tho....

[Killtacular]

well, cgi vehicles are here to stay, so, sorry but you're just gonna have to live with it...i avoided it as long as i could, but at a certain point i got tired of beating my head against the wall...bottom-line is, NOBODY wants to be animating vehicles by hand, and the overseas companies had been begging us to switch to 3d vehicles for years...ultimately i realized the writing was on the wall, that it was gonna happen sooner or later...i won't claim that i'm 100% happy with the 3d stuff yet, but we (and they) are never gonna get better at it unless we keep at it, so even though we're still on the learning curve, they ARE getting better, MUCH....the new digital javelin looks pretty damn sweet...
I don't mind CGI at all, when it's done well (like Scott Vanzo's work on Clone Wars). It wasn't used too effectively in JL s2 but hopefully you're right about their improving.


funny you should mention the backgrounds: we've actually dusted off the old superman and tnba metropolis and gotham city designs for jlu (i missed 'em too).....
Sweet. I -loved- all of the background work in Superman: TAS.

Before we go.. on track.. and speaking of background things... will JLU ever regain an orchestra or are we still stuck with the synthesized music? :sad: Not that it really matters in the long run (the stories and animation take first priority) but as a musician the music in JL has always felt a little underwhelming. I dunno if it's a budget issue or a time issue... I know WBA likes to pinch pennies a LOT these days..

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,


seriously, i do like his stuff quite a bit...wish he'd finish that "ultimate adventures" story...don't guess it'll ever happen, tho....

Issue #6 was published in January, 2004, to as little fanfare as possible. Not many of the usual suspects on-line reviewed it. Issues 1, 5, and 6 are available at Midtown Comics' web site (http://www.midtowncomics.com/eshop/searchresult.asp?crypt=HPcog%3F%28NPcog%3F%28WugtKF%3F5%3B9894%3A43%28WutPcog%3F%28WutV%7Brg%3F%28Wu tNgxgn%3F).

Marvel solicited a TPB (http://www.marvel.com/comics/trades/detail.htm?id=278) for December, 2003, and as far as I know it hasn't been outright cancelled, but to be honest, I wasn't really looking very hard for it. It may even be in bookstores now.

I kind of got the sense that Zimmerman wasn't as good at the funny comic books, but that he nailed some of the "serious" aspects well. From what I'd heard, "Ultimate Adventures" was quite good, mostly because it wasn't trying quite so hard to be funny.

-- Ed/Ace

[Grimlock]

not to worry.
Good news, thanks for the info.

[Grimlock]

it IS "a little from column a, a little from column b"...it wasn't nearly as "desperate for a pick-up" as your first suggestion indicates (don't worry, no offense taken)...cn picked up seasons 3 and 4 with the request that we "re-brand" the show somewhat...honestly, i think they would have been happy if we'd just changed the title...it was totally our idea to re-vamp the show into its current configuration...we just figured, "we've done two whole seasons of 'traditional' JL, now let's try something different"...fortunately, cn loved the proposed changes and here we are...


Wow, so there we go, straight from the horse's mouth. Hopefully this'll end this board's debate on why the changes went through.

What's also good news is that there's almost definitely a season 4.

b.t., would you like to see the show go on to seasons beyond 4, or are you planning on moving on to other things? Are you even allowed to answer that question? :)

[Grimlock]

Now let's just hope the "richer" art of the episodes will have less CG and more inspired backgrounds like the ones STAS or TNBA used to have.

lol everyone seems to have forgotten poor Ron in the process!! :D
I started this thread, and frankly, where the thread's gone is much, much better than discussing ron, in my opinion :).

[Grimlock]

I have to say the name and other changes were something I was curious about and you answered very nicely.I wonder if this means that every few years we are going to get a new name for the show? Will it one day be renamed "Justice League Elite" or The New Adventures Of The Justice League"? Hopefully there is enough juice to push it 5, 6, or even 7 more seasons.
One can only hope...

[Grimlock]

seriously, i do like his stuff quite a bit...wish he'd finish that "ultimate adventures" story...don't guess it'll ever happen, tho....
With the timeframe marvel's putting out comics these days, it could be a long, long while.

Just ask kevin smith, i think he's got approximately 2 marvel series over a year old (going on 2 years?) that doesn't look like they'll be finished any time soon.

[Doomsday]

b.t. would you say you are satisfy with how season 3 is looking right now. And is the endless cameos of heros and villians over? I don't mind that the CG is coming back, in most episodes it wasn't that bad. As long as its not as bad as Maid of Honor. The Javelin was painful to look at. Its movement seemed wrong. Also is any of the characters getting a makeover like Superman did in Season 2. The only one that I think needs a little make over is Batman, it was the worst of the batman designs. Best being is the design from TNBA. Loved to hear that we getting better backgrounds. And a off topic question, what was your favorite episode out of batman, superman, batman beyond, JL, and because you watch it Teen Titans?

[Grimlock]

b.t., this is my last question, honest!! I actually think others will also be interested:

Can you tell us if you did commentary or introductions for every episode for the new BTAS DVD boxed sets coming out in july?

What's my post count in this thread up to now, like 12? :)

[Mysteryinfoman]

well, cgi ...vehicles are here to stay, so, sorry but you're just gonna have to live with it...i avoided it as long as i could, but at a certain point i got tired of beating my head against the wall...bottom-line is, NOBODY wants to be animating ...vehicles by hand, and the overseas companies had been begging us to switch to 3d vehicles for years...ultimately i realized the writing was on the wall, that it was gonna happen sooner or later...i won't claim that i'm 100% happy with the 3d stuff yet, but we (and they) are never gonna get better at it unless we keep at it, so even though we're still on the learning curve, they ARE getting better, MUCH....the new digital javelin looks pretty damn sweet...
Good to hear the CG might improve, in S2 the CG was okay but it could've used more work but as you said, the more you try the better it might get. The Javelin is getting a new design, cool.

[b.t.]

b.t., this is my last question, honest!! I actually think others will also be interested:

Can you tell us if you did commentary or introductions for every episode for the new BTAS DVD boxed sets coming out in july?

What's my post count in this thread up to now, like 12? :)


geez, guys, too many questions! if this turns into the "ask b.t." thread, i'll never get the show done! i'll see what i can do about answering the more involved questions later, but right now, lemme just answer this one, briefly:

the btas dvd will have episode-specific commentaries on "on leather wings" (eric radomski and myself) and "heart of ice" (eric, dini and me) only...i'd have loved to do more, but y'know, you DO run out of things to talk about, i found...and, really, does ANYBODY really want commentaries on "prophecy of doom" or "the underdwellers"?

we did do some very intensive "talking head" interviews for the featurette supplements, an overall comprehensive retrospective kinda thing....they interviewed me, dini, eric, efrem zimballist jr., andrea romano (i think) and god knows who else...don't know if they got kevin conroy in time for their deadline or not, i know there were some scheduling problems...anyhow, it's gonna be good.

[Stu]

All right everyone, please remember this isn't "The Official Ask Bruce Timm Stuff" thread. Look at the mass amount of questions in a mere few hours, please hold back a bit. Some of these questions Mr. Timm probably isn't allowed to anwser.

It's a privalege that he posts on these boards, let's not to bug him with an endless amount of questions.

That cool with everyone?

EDIT: Just saw b.t's post above...feel like a fool. :sweat:

[Mysteryinfoman]

Wait, b.t. is Bruce T, wow! No wonder he knows so much, did you guys know this already. I thought he was an insider but Bruce Timm. I must say welcome to the boards and it's great to have you here. Yes I'm a bit behind.

[PeterFries]

Wait, b.t. is Bruce T, wow! No wonder he knows so much, did you guys know this already. I thought he was an insider but Bruce Timm. I must say welcome to the boards and it's great to have you here. Yes I'm a bit behind.
shhhhh! Jeez, way to ruin the whole thing, Spoiley McSpoilster.

[Knight]

Wait, b.t. is Bruce T, wow! No wonder he knows so much, did you guys know this already. I thought he was an insider but Bruce Timm. I must say welcome to the boards and it's great to have you here. Yes I'm a bit behind.
Im sure most of the people who having been posting and seen b.t.'s post from time to time knew that he wasnt the average poster I know I did.

[Nick K.]

Does this mean that DarkLantern is Paul Dini? LOL

[DerekPowers]

hey b. t., hope this doesnt remind you too much of when u start feeding pigeons in the park, you know what happens, we start to swarm :D !! but take it as a compliment, cause this is really soo freaking cool.

anyway, im really glad to hear about all those changes (including ron zimmerman writting a script, hell, might as well try and connect it). they sound AWESOME. im so happy to hear there will be a new look, i really cant express the respect i have for you to actually care so much about the show, to constantly be evolving and stuff, its really quite refreshing in our corporate commodity culture. but i digress, cause i can go on, and i mean it.

BUT, i would like to second what Matt Wilson said about the music. it really does detract MAJORLY from the show at times. season 2 wasnt so bad in that regards, to be honest, an improvement over season 1, but i think the orchestra would give SOOO much to the show, or atleast more attention to the score (i guess JL isnt batman, so an actual live ochestra isnt really vital).

A really good example of this is "Secret Origins", which i think i read (probably in a toonzone interview) that you said after re-watching secret origins, you saw it wasnt the best JL had to offer. Now, i've recently rewatched it and ITS THE SCORE!!! I am so serious, listen to that score, it is god aweful and makes a lot of scenes so much worse than what they actual were. again, im probably not telling you anything you dont already know, but that is the best example i can think of in JL where the score did some serious serious damage. it was so generic and lame, sounded like it was from a cheap 80s cartoon. anyway, just thought i'd give that little piece of constructed criticism. anyway, ROCK ON! peace.

[Killtacular]

hey b. t., hope this doesnt remind you too much of when u start feeding pigeons in the park, you know what happens, we start to swarm :D !! but take it as a compliment, cause this is really soo freaking cool.

anyway, im really glad to hear about all those changes (including ron zimmerman writting a script, hell, might as well try and connect it). they sound AWESOME. im so happy to hear there will be a new look, i really cant express the respect i have for you to actually care so much about the show, to constantly be evolving and stuff, its really quite refreshing in our corporate commodity culture. but i digress, cause i can go on, and i mean it.

BUT, i would like to second what Matt Wilson said about the music. it really does detract MAJORLY from the show at times. season 2 wasnt so bad in that regards, to be honest, an improvement over season 1, but i think the orchestra would give SOOO much to the show, or atleast more attention to the score (i guess JL isnt batman, so an actual live ochestra isnt really vital).

A really good example of this is "Secret Origins", which i think i read (probably in a toonzone interview) that you said after re-watching secret origins, you saw it wasnt the best JL had to offer. Now, i've recently rewatched it and ITS THE SCORE!!! I am so serious, listen to that score, it is god aweful and makes a lot of scenes so much worse than what they actual were. again, im probably not telling you anything you dont already know, but that is the best example i can think of in JL where the score did some serious serious damage. it was so generic and lame, sounded like it was from a cheap 80s cartoon. anyway, just thought i'd give that little piece of constructed criticism. anyway, ROCK ON! peace.
There were a couple of episodes of JL with some okay orchestration. I'm thinking of the opening segment of Eclipsed.

When the music is just low brass, the gigasound(?) instruments used sound okay... typically that's always the case for orchestral gigasounds or soundfonts. But then you throw in trumpets, strings, and woodwinds, and it all melts into unrealistic goo.

A couple of good examples of fake orchestral music is the music in Duck Dodgers of all shows. I know that he uses a rather popular SAM library used mostly in computer music... I think it's the first time I've really heard it in a cartoon. It worked well. Also I can't tell if MEGAS XLR's music is fake or real orchestra, which is perfect. JL's, though... I wouldn't place in the same tier at all.

[Fone Bone]

I loved the closing music from "Hearts and Minds". Wasn't too crazy about the rest of the episode, but no show is perfect. I love Justice League.

[EJill34]

There were a couple of episodes of JL with some okay orchestration. I'm thinking of the opening segment of Eclipsed.

When the music is just low brass, the gigasound(?) instruments used sound okay... typically that's always the case for orchestral gigasounds or soundfonts. But then you throw in trumpets, strings, and woodwinds, and it all melts into unrealistic goo.

A couple of good examples of fake orchestral music is the music in Duck Dodgers of all shows. I know that he uses a rather popular SAM library used mostly in computer music... I think it's the first time I've really heard it in a cartoon. It worked well. Also I can't tell if MEGAS XLR's music is fake or real orchestra, which is perfect. JL's, though... I wouldn't place in the same tier at all.
Actually, I think strings can turn out pretty decent, but you are right about it all "melting into unrealistic goo." To be honest, my biggest gripe about JL is the music. I love the show to death, but the music really gets to me. I liked the score for "Hereafter" though. Being a composer, an underwhelming score can kind of ruin the episode for me.

The music for JL is probably much more difficult than the ones for B:TAS, S:TAS and BB. In those shows you had fewer character themes to work with, but in JL you have 7 (going on 20 or so) different main characters to work with. They all need a memorable theme for their big moment. Outside of Batman and Superman, the other heroes haven't had themes that really grab you. The orchestration is also a little ordinary. I liked some of those more avant-garde things they were doing in ROTJ for example (the flashback).

Anyway, I still love JL, and I think it's an excellent show. It's an honor to have Mr. Timm posting here. I've been a fan of his since B:TAS and the fact that he's posting here is a dream come true. So...thank you b.t.

[Toddman]

And a off topic question, what was your favorite episode out of batman, superman, batman beyond, JL, and because you watch it Teen Titans?

Yeah, when someone is a producer for a show, they do tend to actually watch the show. (then again, I've known a couple of producers to which that might not apply...)

Sorry to poke fun at you specificly, Doomsday, but it's funny how many people forget that Bruce Timm is one of the producers on TT, or refer to it as a "non-Timm show."

Toddman

[maxnugget]

I'm sure Mr. Timm understands that even when we criticize his shows, the fact that we are obsessed enough with the shows to actually launch into detailed criticisms of the most minute aspects of them is simply proof of how much we love them. :)

Your pigeon analogy is perfect, DerekPowers...

Speaking of Mr. Timm, words cannot describe how cool you are and how amazing the animated world you've created over the past 12 years is.

My favorite thing about S2 was the added sense of continuity between episodes...the continuity ties made to previous series were awesome too, but what made S2 seem really special was that the episodes didn't feel like they existed in their own bubbles. I felt like I was watching an animated soap opera starring my favorite DC characters. :)

Also, one of the things that I felt made "A Better World" so damn cool was that you got a really strong sense at times (particularly during the Doomsday fight and during Luthor's speech at the end) in the episode that there was a living, breathing society that shared the earth with the JL and their villains. Most of the time the humans (citizens of society) -- and even characters and beings from other planets -- either are non-existant if they're not directly involved in the story, or, in the case of the people of earth, they often appear as lemmings who do little more than run away from exploding buildings and fall from high ledges. "Apokolips Now," "Legacy," "Secret Origins," and "The Enemy Below" were good examples where the "JL universe" seemed "fuller" because there was a sense of how the story being told impacted those not directly involved in it (usually the people of earth). By contrast, "The Savage Time," strangely, felt like it happened in a bubble and didn't involve anyone besides the soldiers, the JL, and Vandal Savage, even though it obviously impacted the entire world, being that it was World War II.

I believe there was once a discussion here about this, and they used the term "insular" to describe how many of the episodes are inward-looking rather than feeling like a part of the bigger world they are set in.

Anyway, I'm ranting...and there's only one person in this thread who has an unlimited license to rant. :p

[Doomsday]

Yeah, when someone is a producer for a show, they do tend to actually watch the show. (then again, I've known a couple of producers to which that might not apply...)

Sorry to poke fun at you specificly, Doomsday, but it's funny how many people forget that Bruce Timm is one of the producers on TT, or refer to it as a "non-Timm show."

Toddman
I took no offense. I thought he might of been a producer of the show. TT, but what was the chances that he takes part of 2 great shows. It is just so much different to his other shows, but still a very good show.

[b.t.]

Sorry to poke fun at you specificly, Doomsday, but it's funny how many people forget that Bruce Timm is one of the producers on TT, or refer to it as a "non-Timm show."

Toddman

well, even though i'm listed as a producer, TT actually IS, for all intents and purposes a "non-timm" show...my involvement with TT has always been minimal...i was attached as a producer as a sort of security blanket for both glen and wba -- the idea being that if glen had somehow messed-up the show, i could step in and get it back on track, or, if glen himself were feeling over-whelmed by production or political problems, he could use me as back-up....there were several instances where he ran into tricky situations where he really could have used me as a "big stick" -- in fact there was this one time i was BEGGING him to let me go to bat for him! -- but in every single case, glen felt that he needed to fight his own battles...he was absolutely right, of course....

during pre-production of season one, glen would occasionally (very rarely) come to me for advice, on production or political issues....i realised early on that glen really did have his own vision of what TT should be, both in terms of story and art direction, and it was quite a bit different from what i would have done....my influence would be more of a hindrance than a help...i didn't want to throw him off-track, so i stayed completely out of the creative process....

i contributed a bit more during post-production, sitting in on several of the first editing sessions, basically just teaching him some of the editing tricks that joe gall and i have developed over the years...even then it was more a matter of making suggestions than me saying "oh, you have to do it THIS way"....after the first few shows i could tell glen was more than comfortable editing the shows without me...bless his heart, he still let me WATCH his initial cuts and let me make suggestions, some of which he took, some he disregarded, as was his right...same thing with the first few sound mixes, but there he already had a very definite sound design theory of his own, so my suggestions in that area were more technical than creative...

seasons one and two overlapped somewhat, so while he and his guys were swamped with pre-production on the first few eps of season two, joe gall and i got to take the first editing pass on two eps, "mad mod" and "car trouble"....."mod" was pure joy to edit; for all the weirdness in that ep, the actual visual storytelling continuity was pretty damn rock-solid, all joe and i had to do was tighten-up some of the pacing here and there..."car trouble", for various reasons, was a bit tougher to pull together: it had probably the weakest animation of season one....for a show that was all about racing, it was timed VERY slow...and on top of all that, it was short, so we didn't have much footage to play with...we ended up leaving in a lot of shots that we otherwise would have just cut out, because we HAD to...ultimately, after sound and music were added, it came out pretty nice, i thought (and, in both cases, glen had the "final cut")....

i've been even less involved with season two, in fact i haven't done a bloody thing! (i really must remember to have my name taken off the credits)....anyone who knows me will tell you that i'm quite the control freak, very opinionated, and i don't mind "sharing" my opinions....so, my biggest contribution to TT was to NOT contribute, to just stay the hell out of glen's way, and let him be brilliant all by himself....

[Toddman]

i've been even less involved with season two, in fact i haven't done a bloody thing! (i really must remember to have my name taken off the credits)....
Even though you are listed as a producer on TT, I hope it didn't sound like I was ignoring Glen Murakami. It's definitely been a wild ride watching his style drive the show. From character design to story flavor, it seems to have been a true labor of love and a showcase for his unique talent.

In all truthfulness, your producer credit only becomes a real bone of contention around here when it's brought up (or ignored) in all of those damn "How does Teen Titans fit into continuity with the other shows?" debates.

In any case, thanks for the cool in-depth view of your role in TT. I've been wondering about the extent of your involvement with it. I've heard that sometimes "producer" credits are handed out like candy in Hollywood. Your behind the scenes look at the show was a real treat.

Toddman

[Animelee]

Wow, some of my actual idols (D McD, "Wayne Drake") posting at ToonZone is like a dream come true... I still can't believe you guys post here -- it's fricken amazing!

I really have a lot of questions to ask, but I don't want to overload you with questions, so, ehhh, the real point of my post is to thank you so much to choose to take time and interact with your fans. *Giddy overload*

[Salvor]

I'm sure Mr. Timm understands that even when we criticize his shows, the fact that we are obsessed enough with the shows to actually launch into detailed criticisms of the most minute aspects of them is simply proof of how much we love them. :)Actually I really really don't love JL :D

Wow this thread has gone from Ron Zimmerman to Teen Titans production with a little bit of JL music and peanut butter thrown in. I won't even try to get it back on-track. Nice to learn so much though. Though I HAVE to ask: Bruce, since you were credited as a producer, were you actually PAID for Teen Titans season 2? :D

I was wondering how long it would take until such a "Bruce Timm questions free-for-all" thread would come up...

[b.t.]

Actually I really really don't love JL :D


gosh, REALLY? huh, i had no idea....

oops, gotta run....my dead horse is calling me, must be time for his daily beating....

[Fone Bone]

In all truthfulness, your producer credit only becomes a real bone of contention around here when it's brought up (or ignored) in all of those damn "How does Teen Titans fit into continuity with the other shows?" debates.

Toddman
I HATE those threads. Every continuity or timeline thread is ruined by people trying to shoehorn Titans into continuity. We need a definative answer from DarkLantern, nothing, b.t., or Dwayne McDuffie. Only then will it stop. And even that is no garuntee. Folks, enjoy Teen Titans for what it is. Stop trying to limit its potential.

[DerekPowers]

I HATE those threads. Every continuity or timeline thread is ruined by people trying to shoehorn Titans into continuity. We need a definative answer from DarkLantern, nothing, b.t., or Dwayne McDuffie. Only then will it stop. And even that is no garuntee. Folks, enjoy Teen Titans for what it is. Stop trying to limit its potential.

so, just for the record, who is "nothing" and darkLantern really? i think i have an idea of darklantern, but i didnt even know nothing was an insider too! geez. i cant wait till I'M an insider ;) .

as far as tt and continuity, its NOT in continuity, i thought we all settled this a long time ago...

[screw on head]

I've been resisting the urge to pose a question to bt during the course of all 5 pages of this thread, and since there's been a little lull here this afternoon, here goes...

I really enjoyed the kirby-isms in A Knight of Shadows, particularly the dramatic "inking" and colors on Etrigan's face during the opening sequence and the little Kirby squiggles on Morgan le Fay's mask. Is that a challenge, translating certain artists' styles and/or influences to screen, to sort of showcase them in a scene or episode, so to speak? The Barbarians gave off an effortless Frazetta feel to them in Eclipsed, or maybe that's just me.

This is it, I swear :D !

[randomguy]

Wow, there's a lot of great news in this thread. Wish I had been reading it all along. I'm particularly excited about the return to the STAS and TNBA depictions of Metropolis and Gotham, respectively. I missed ominous Gotham...

On a sidenote, I'll be interested to see what Alan Moore ends up thinking of the JLU adaptation of his story. That is, if he discusses it publically, which I suppose he probably won't.

I'm actually pretty excited about the Zimmerman ep. Although his work is... a little iffy, Ultimate Adventures actually turned out pretty solid, and I thought his Tangled Web story was a lot of fun. If the episode he's doing is along those lines, I think it should be really interesting.

[Grimlock]

geez, guys, too many questions! if this turns into the "ask b.t." thread, i'll never get the show done! i'll see what i can do about answering the more involved questions later, but right now, lemme just answer this one, briefly:


*snip*

That was the last question from me, i promise :). I do want to thank you though for taking time out of your busy schedule to talk/discuss/answer our questions. It means a lot to us fans, trust me.

[Silly McGooses]

Damnit, I got to this thread just as we realised we should stop stoning my idol with questions. Arg!