Sylvester's theatricle retirement

[Frank]

Why was Sylvester the cat replaced by Daffy Duck in the mid-60's? Any reasons for this?

[B Mode]

Why was Sylvester the cat replaced by Daffy Duck in the mid-60's? Any reasons for this?

What's a "theatricle retirement"?

[The G Man]

What's a "theatricle retirement"?He means theatrical retirement.

[Frank]

He means theatrical retirement.Yes that's what I mean, I didn't know how to spell it right!

[Jon Cooke]

What's a "theatricle retirement"?

B Mode, I realize spelling errors get on your nerves. But is it really necessary to point out people's mistakes like this every single time? It's becoming a little annoying.


-Jon

[rodney]

There's been much speculation on this, but it's possible that Daffy Duck was simply more popular with audiences than Sylvester. Knowing that there would be reduced output from the studio in the mid-60's, Depatie-Freleng seemed to focus on the Daffy/Speedy relationship almost exclusively (the Rudy Larriva Roadrunner cartoons were subcontracted out to Format Films).

It's also possible that the idea was proposed for the Daffy Duck Show on TV, and they knew that more shorts would be needed to for that program. It's really anyone's guess, though nobody can deny that the results of that happening are dismal.

This post is spelling error free to my knowledge.

[absolutpaul]

It would seem to me that they probably were thinking of a future Daffy Duck TV show, as they would have had enough Bugs Bunnys, Tweetys and Porkys (which were colorized). They surely had the Road Runner Show in mind when they cranked out those last 11 Rudy Larriva cartoons. I suppose Speedy was the only choice they had to work with, as it would probably have been too expensive to create original stories for Daffy (with new characters) every time.

[Howard Fein]

"It's also possible that the idea was proposed for the Daffy Duck Show on TV, and they knew that more shorts would be needed to for that program. It's really anyone's guess, though nobody can deny that the results of that happening are dismal."

That could be, except that the Daffy/Speedy shorts were released theatrically from 1965 through 1968, and it wasn't until November 1978 that the first 'official' DAFFY DUCK SHOW premiered as a mid-season replacement on NBC's Saturday AM schedule. This is to believed to have been the first time those shorts had been aired on American TV. (There had been a syndicated MERRIE MELODIES show the previous season that showed all the Daffy/Speedy shorts and the Hendricks shorts as well, but such a package reportedly aired in the States. It did air on Canada's Global network through at least 1981.)

Why it took so long for these shorts to be aired on network TV is not clear. Numerous Saturday AM Bugs Bunny and Road Runner packages had earned big ratings in various formats on both ABC and CBS since 1966. A handful of Syvlester/Speedy shorts produced by DFE had been part of the network rotation until 1975 when it was passed from ABC back to CBS. Maybe Warners wouldn't sell networks the rights to the Daffy/Speedy shorts -or the other Hendricks series. Or maybe no network was interested in them until 1978, and NBC was only interested in the 'marquee' value of the duck and mouse. The network suits probably felt Kool Kat and Merlin were too obscure for contemporary viewers. RABBIT STEW AND RABBITS TOO was the only non-D/S Hendricks short to air on NBC.

Another theory could be that NBC had to wait until it had the rights to enough shorts to fill out a 13 or 17 half-hour package of three shorts each. Just the Daffy/Speedy shorts wouldn't have done that. Many of the NBC titles were older Foggy, Pepe, Sylvester/Speedy, solo Sylvester and solo Daffy shorts that had previously aired in the ABC and CBS rotations.

I first started really paying attention to the network-run WB cartoons around 1977-78. It confused me to no end why CBS only showed two Foggy shorts- (LITTLE BOY BOO, MOTHER WAS A ROOSTER), no Pepe or Speedy shorts, one Daffy/Speedy short (SNOW EXCUSE). The missing shorts, of course, would all turn up on NBC the following season- along with two Tweety shorts (GREEDY FOR TWEETY, THE LAST HUNGRY CAT). That was quite jarring, as Tweety was viewed as belonging exclusively to CBS- just like Bugs and the Roadrunner. (A clip from READY, WOOLEN AND ABLE, as well as many syndicated Daffy/Porky shorts, did air as 'teasers' on the NBC package.)

To make things even more confusing, two D/S shorts never aired in the NBC package as far as I can remember: WELL WORN DAFFY and CHILI CON CORNY. They don't seem to contain any more violence or Mexican stereotypes than the other shorts. NBC was very liberal as far as not editing cartoons for violence: when CBS acquired the whole WB network package, it made mincemeat out of such explosion-heavy shorts as GONZALES TAMALES, ASTRO-DUCK, SWING DING AMIGO and ASSAULT AND PEPPERED.

One more thing: I don't ever recall NBC showing early DFE entries PANCHO'S HIDEAWAY (too violent/stereotypical?), SUPPRESSED DUCK (fellow DFE Daffy solo TEASE FOR TWO did air) or THE WILD CHASE (Coyote and Roadrunner not allowed on NBC?). Oscar winner THE PIED PIPER OF GUADALUPE didn't seem to air either- unlike all the other nonsyndie or post-1960 Sylvester/Speedy shorts.

[Thad Komorowski]

I think Daffy Duck, Speedy Gonzales, and the Road Runner were used because they needed more of those characters' cartoons for television. Most of the Larriva Road Runners started showing up on "The Road Runner Show" as early as 1966...


-Thad

[Matthew Hunter]

The best two reasons I've heard are:

1. Daffy and Speedy were the most popular characters with the theaters who were still buying cartoons, in the Southwest apparently. It seemed natural to just combine the two characters.

2. More Daffy Duck cartoons and more Speedy Gonzales cartoons were wanted for TV, and once again, why not make cartoons that had two for the price of one?

-Matthew Hunter

[Daffyfan2003]

It would seem to me that they probably were thinking of a future Daffy Duck TV show, as they would have had enough Bugs Bunnys, Tweetys and Porkys (which were colorized). They surely had the Road Runner Show in mind when they cranked out those last 11 Rudy Larriva cartoons. I suppose Speedy was the only choice they had to work with, as it would probably have been too expensive to create original stories for Daffy (with new characters) every time.
I don't know. That might have worked. Don't forget about the three Format Films cartoons with Daffy, but no Speedy: "Tease for Two," "Corn on the Cop," "Suppressed Duck."

[B Mode]

B Mode, I realize spelling errors get on your nerves. But is it really necessary to point out people's mistakes like this every single time? It's becoming a little annoying.


-Jon

Sorry. But so are the threads where I have no idea what people are talking

[Jack]

Sorry. But so are the threads where I have no idea what people are talking (about)The word was spelled phonetically clear enough that you could figure out what he was saying, so I find it unlikely that you had no clue what he meant. So please stop insulting other members just because they don't meet your high standards.

[oldgreypole]

Don't forget about the three Format Films cartoons with Daffy, but no Speedy: "Tease for Two," "Corn on the Cop," "Suppressed Duck."
I wonder if you mean DePatie-Freleng cartoons.

[Eric B]

The missing shorts, of course, would all turn up on NBC the following season- along with two Tweety shorts (GREEDY FOR TWEETY, THE LAST HUNGRY CAT). That was quite jarring, as Tweety was viewed as belonging exclusively to CBS- just like Bugs and the Roadrunner. I take it this was the later "Sylvester and Tweety, Daffy and Speedy" show. Because, Tweety, NEVER appeared in the plain original Daffy Duck show (as neither did Bugs or the Roadrunner).

[Steve Carras]

The best two reasons I've heard are:

1. Daffy and Speedy were the most popular characters with the theaters who were still buying cartoons, in the Southwest apparently. It seemed natural to just combine the two characters.

2. More Daffy Duck cartoons and more Speedy Gonzales cartoons were wanted for TV, and once again, why not make cartoons that had two for the price of one?

-Matthew HunterDaffy and Porky WERE teamed (inTGhe Pigster's farewell, 1965's CORN ON THE COP by veteran MGM animator Irv Spector but Freleng-written, and costarring GRANNY!!!), Speedy and Daffy SHOLD in my humble opinion of course, have been teamed against some common enemy (syvester, Sam?)(, thus giving BOTH to come out on top..Just a thought.

Despite all of the profeffered reasons, it's still tempting to wonder why the hostilty rather than putting them togther as Bugs and Daffy should have (and WERE at the end of their FOIST teamin', Chuck Jones,s ecellent 1951 toon RABBIT FIRE), been teamed a la Hubie and Bertie against a common enemy and both came out on top at filmn's end.

(EVEN MORE freaky are some stories I've come up about Bugs Losing if *I* directed atg fifties Bugs...sinsitermaddoc laugh)

To Howard Fein..
I think you mean by (the MERRIE package of 70s) "it did air in United States" that it did NOT air there!

[Boy Wonder]

Any case though, its a good thing Syvlester's popularity wasn't runied there. Those cartoons were bad.

[Jon Cooke]

Any case though, its a good thing Syvlester's popularity wasn't runied there. Those cartoons were bad.

I think Sylvester would have helped many of those later Speedy cartoons. I think many of the plots would have worked better if they had just used a character other than Daffy in the villain roles. For example, I could easily picture Yosemite Sam working better as the bad guy in cartoons like "Well Worn Daffy" and "Snow Excuse".


-Jon

[J Lee]

"Snow Excuse" at the very least gives Daffy a rationale for being opposed to Speedy -- he's stealing his wood -- but many of the other D-FE and Hendricks' cartoons never could square the circle of exactly why a duck should be chasing a mouse (at least in "A Taste of Catnip" they actually try to explain why it's happening, while at the same time giving Sylvester his final theatrical appearance in a cameo role).

Given the cheaper animation caused by the far lower budgets in thre D-FE and Hendricks' shorts, and Daffy's by-then habitual greedy personality, they actually could have also crafted a whole cartoon around the premise of Bugs not wanting to appear in such low-budget hackwork efforts, leaving an eager Daffy to jump at the chance to earn a few extra bucks and step into the starring limelight, only to end up stuck with a long-term contract that turns him into a "stupido duck" foil for Speedy, while hating the job.

If nothing else, it would have been a better plot for Daffy to work with than "Rodent To Stardom."

[Daffyfan2003]

I wonder if you mean DePatie-Freleng cartoons.
Yeah, that's what I meant. Sorry about that.

[Daffyfan2003]

I think Sylvester would have helped many of those later Speedy cartoons. I think many of the plots would have worked better if they had just used a character other than Daffy in the villain roles. For example, I could easily picture Yosemite Sam working better as the bad guy in cartoons like "Well Worn Daffy" and "Snow Excuse".


-Jon
I kind of agree, I would think that Sylveser (or Yosemite Sam) would have worked better as an adversary for Speedy than Daffy. That's kind of why I like "Cats and Bruises" and "Road to Andalay." (Two DePatie/Freleng Speedy cartoons where is adversary IS Sylvester.)

[Matthew Hunter]

I don't think the idea of a Daffy/Speedy paring is all that bad, nor do I think the entire series was bad. It's just that there were way too many of them...there were over 20 of them, and if they cut that by half it would still be too many. Cartoons where Daffy has a legitimate reason to harm Speedy work better than cartoons that try to stretch it with a really farfetched, lame excuse. "Feather Finger" works, because Daffy has to act as a bounty hunter so he can have money to eat. I'd chase a mouse if I were a poor beggar in need of money. "Go Go Amigo" works, mainly because Daffy doesn't want Speedy to steal his merchandise. "Daffy's Diner" is also a nicely written short...Daffy tries to cook Speedy because he's the only mouse around, and the big cat will shoot him if he doesn't cook a mouseburger.

There are still others that could have been good cartoons if they'd toned Daffy down some. "A Squeak in the Deep" is a great cartoon if you ignore the opening scene...as soon as Daffy sees Speedy, he sticks him in a tin can and punts him down the road. Now why would he do that? Daffy's acts of agression towards Speedy are believable in the rest of the cartoon.....it's a boat race, a competition in a cartoon. Fine...but that opening scene really irks me. "Assault and Peppered" is okay once the war gags start, but once again, the setup nearly ruins the payoff. "Sthtop sthtarving all over my property! It lowers the value!"...once again, wow...WHY? Yosemite sam would do that, but it just doesn't fit Daffy very well.

"Well Worn Daffy"...wrong characters period. Daffy's got an Arabian hat on, rides a camel, and waters his palm trees...but then you have Speedy and his little amigos in there....why would Mexicans and a presumedly American duck be put in that setting? It would make sense if they had Daffy watering cacti while wearing a cowboy hat atop a horse. Hell, the whole thing would work great if you had Yosemite Sam as the Arab shiek well-guard and Bugs and Daffy instead of the Mexican mice. "Rodent To Stardom"...wrong characters here too. They get Daffy right, but I would have replaced Speedy with Bugs Bunny.