P.G thread Naked people and Anime.

[I.R Joey]

I was in my room recently practicing my artwork (a drawing I've been working on for a couple weeks) when my sister came in. She said she had a bone to pick with me, so I said pick it. Here's how it went.

Her: What's with the Naked women on the wall paper.

(understand that we both have very conservative backgrounds, as I've said before I'm a very serious Christian.)

Me: (Remembering my Outlaw Star wallpaper) Oh Melfina she's the Bio android for Outlaw Star. You have to understand that when you see nudity in Japan, it is often not necciserily seen as an erotic or sensual thing.

Her: Nudity in any culture is still a nudity (I think she meant a sensual thing.)

Me: I think it's just a cultural thing and two diffrent ways of seeing things.

Her: Still you shouldn't put those kind of erotic thoughts into your head.

Me: I don't see these things as erotic, and besides tell it to Michelangelo look at his art.

Her (being an art student): ...

She sits in pondering for a moment. She shakes my head apparently rattaling my 16 year old mind.

Her: Just guard your thoughts.

We move on, I constantly joke with her about it for a while though.


Anyway to the point. What is it with Naked people in Anime/Manga. I mean there is of coarse the "fan service"
element (stupid if you ask me), bu then there are other things like the SM or Pretty Sammy transformation sequences anyone being arroused by such a thing must be a total looser which leads me to think that alot of it is just a cultural thing, of not over sensulizing stuff. Opinions?

[Psycho Fox]

Well the way I see it nudity isn't really a bad thing. I mean if mother nature wanted us to be covered up we would have furr. What I'm getting at is nudity has to do with what society thinks is appropriate then what actully is.

Think about it some tribes only ware cothes to keep warm and for protection, are they wrong???

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Personally, I have no problems with subtle fan service, as long as they are brief and don't interrupt the plot. A cleavage shot is okay with me, or an ***** shot, as long as they are short. It's sexist, yes, but then there are tons of fan service in Buffy the Vampire Slayer as well (Buffy on a skipping rope, anyone?). Ally McBeal, WWF wrestling, heck, almost all American live-action shows have "fan service" too. It's overrated in anime, because it's done in other places as well.

[Nightwing]

Yeah I agree with Larry Jojo, but I have a slightly different take on it.

I also don't mind it if it's not the entire movie, or episode etc. But for those like Joey's sister who demands he "guard" his thoughts, I have a strong feeling we just have to deal with it. Human's have hormones that are extremely strong, and always active, so you might see things like that in all those forms of entertainment that Larry mentioned. Why? Because it's all made by people. There are an immense ammount of different opinions and personalities out there too....

I think it has a lot to do with evolution, in some respects.

[batboy2001]

I had a discusion just like this with my brother, who is just like your sister IR. About some "different" things in anime, I came to the conclusion that it is a different culture so they have a different way of looking at things.

[Calhoun07]

I just wanted to say that in the past, I have known several Chritian types who'd "preach" to me about what in the media was supposed to be corrupting me, everthing from Star Trek to Beavis and Butthead to you name it. And you know what I found? Those who squak the loudest lay the biggest eggs.

Invarialbly, the people who are squawking the loudest about things like breats in anime or Q in Star Trek or some little, pointless thing that I doubt even Jesus Himself would have taken time out of His day to discuss, those are the people who are stuggling the most with what they are preaching against. I saw it more with sexual matters, when "Christians" would be preaching against sexual matters, and it would turn out later that they would backslide and fall over what it was they were preaching about. I've seen it too many times to know now to listen to ANYBODY who is trying to preach to me about something like this.

I am not saying I know your sister, Joey, or what she struggles with, just speaking purely from personal experience and how people have done the same to me and they were the ones stuggling with it in the end, not me. I just would take it with a grain of salt, that's all.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Personally, it sounds to me like she's just bothering her brother. She didn't tear his posters down (did she?) or whine about it to his parents, so it's probably harmless sibling jocking.

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by calhoun07
I just wanted to say that in the past, I have known several Chritian types who'd "preach" to me about what in the media was supposed to be corrupting me, everthing from Star Trek to Beavis and Butthead to you name it. And you know what I found? Those who squak the loudest lay the biggest eggs.

just speaking purely from personal experience and how people have done the same to me and they were the ones stuggling with it in the end, not me. I just would take it with a grain of salt, that's all.

A thought: Who would be a more credible spokesman against alcohol abuse: a recovering alcoholic who admits to sometimes falling off the wagon, or a confirmed teetolar who's never touched a drop? The former looks like a hypocrite, but knows what he's talking about, and can explain and warn against the temptation he knows so well. The latter looks pure and principled since he's always abstained, but if he's never experienced or struggled with the temptation is he really the best model for those who have? (One commentator I know of compared the latter type to "eunuchs boasting of their chastity.")

I'm not saying hypocrisy isn't a problem, but I suspect the hypocrisy which can be exhibited by the one type is probably a lesser problem than the unearned pride that can be exhibited by the other.

[Calhoun07]

Not exactly the kind of person I was talking about Maxie. I am talking about the kind of person who hasn't dealt with the stuff they are preaching against. Let's take your eunich for an example, who is preaching the hardest and loudest against adultery. It might be, and from my personal experience it more than likely could be, that he is stuggling with adulterous thoughts himself so he hopes by the sound of his own preaching that he will keep himself from it. But the thing is that if people don't learn to deal with their personal demons and use their personal demons only to subject others to condemnation, then those people more than likely will have to face their own personal demons one way or another. And more often than not, it's not pretty when they do. And your enuich is far worse off if he had just come face to face with his personal demons and came out and confided in a trusted friend rather than to condemn everybody else and thus shove the demons down in his soul until he couldn't contain them anymore.

Now, I don't decry the work of people who over came adversity and bad things to turn around and help others in that situation. They dealt with their personal demons already, and hopefully are helping people, not trying to condemn them. And I may not know the tone of voice Joey's sister used, but it reads as if it was a little condeming to me.

[BourgeoisBuffoon]

I'll go with Calhoun07 here. It seems the sister was being a bit condeming...

...personally, I never thought nudity in art, be it anime or otherwise, is a problem unless it's porn. All the great artists will often tell you the human body is a work of art, and if handled in the right manner in the art, I'd have to agree.

I really think that like most of you, those preachy preachers (could not think of a better word... ) not only have something better to do, but feel haughty about themselves on "avoiding" temptation. Often they have not avoided it. If you have ever read THE SCREWTAPE LETTERS, you'll know what I'm talking about...Screwtape tells us that some preachers are so rooted in thining they have achieved salvation they will often do something scrupolous, but think "I am still a rightous person at heart, so I am alright..."

[DerekPowers]

personally, (and i'm talking things like melfina and pretty sammi, not new angel and other anime porn) i dont find it as much sensual as i do beautiful. I think a big thing with japanese animation (atleast imo) is how they really try to make things overly beautiful, everything, people, dress, nature, space, everything is beautiful and poetic. so i just see the nudity as a way to express that beauty in an honest way. i mean, as humans, nothing really is more beautiful than the human body (female and male) when you think about it. its so much more real also, like alot of times it makes sense for them to be nude anyway, like tenchi girls in the bath. I find that alot of people here (in the US that is) are just uncomfortable with nudity, even if it isnt in a pornographic way. to me, that seems like an unnecessary constraint, something (among many other things) holding people back from really achieving the kind of self expression that can revolutionize our world. that may sound alittle crazy, but think about it. we as people have way too many unnecessary constraints, and a lot of them have to do with how comfortable we are with ourselfs. um.. i may be blowing this out of proportion, my excuss....its very late. i think i'll stop now before i go off. peace.

[freebooter]

originally said by Calhoun07
Those who squak the loudest lay the biggest eggs.

Wha-? Did you make that up yourself?

I don't know how animators can draw naked people without cracking up. Call me immature, but if I had to draw

Spoiler:

boobs

and stuff, I would be laughing the entire time.

I would like it if anime had less nudity though. In Out Law Star, it's not necessary for Melfina to pilot the ship naked. I believe alot of the nudity is ment to be erotic. They are trying to appeal to their demographic, which is, teenage boys.

Calhoun07's situation sounds nothing like the one involving I.R Joey and his sister.

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by calhoun07
I am talking about the kind of person who hasn't dealt with the stuff they are preaching against. Let's take your eunich for an example, who is preaching the hardest and loudest against adultery. It might be, and from my personal experience it more than likely could be, that he is stuggling with adulterous thoughts himself so he hopes by the sound of his own preaching that he will keep himself from it.

I'm not sure you understood the point of my "eunuchs" example: A "eunuch who boasts of his chastity" is someone boasting about something over which he has no control. Of course a eunuch is chaste, for he cannot be otherwise. In the same way, a person who has never been tempted by sex or alcohol or drugs or the like is not in much of a position to preen about their virtue, and is not the sort of role model for those who genuinely must struggle to overcome the temptations that these others do not feel.

Anyway, to cut right thru it: What does it matter about the state of the soul of the person issuing the warning? If the advice is good, does it matter that they follow it themselves? If your friend says "Don't skate there, it's thin ice" and then skates there himself and falls thru, would you say to yourself, "Hmm, he was a hypocrite, I guess I won't listen to him" and go skating there yourself? Those who preach against a sin and then indulge in it may be fools and annoyances, and a cautionary example to others. You may dislike them intensely (and with good reason). But that's no reason to discount what they say, and the fact that they know what they're talking about (as evidenced by the fact that they are unsuccessful in dealing with their temptations) may be a powerful reason to pay even closer attention to them.

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by BorgeoisBuffoon
I'll go with Calhoun07 here. It seems the sister was being a bit condeming...

But there is a difference between the morality of the act of condemning, and truth or validity of the condemnation itself. One who, as calhoun07 says, has not faced their own weakness and persists in seeking out and condemning that weakness in others is acting reprehensibly. But he may still be right about the fact that others have and should shun that very weakness. To take Christ's story: The man with the beam in his eye who points out that another has a mote in his. He has acted in an ugly way, but what he says is still the truth, and the one with the mote would be foolish to ignore the warning on the grounds that "I've only got a mote, while HE has a beam!"

No one (including me) likes people who go around being sharply judgemental and condemnatory. But in my case that extends to disliking those who are sharply judgemental and condemnatory of those who are sharply judgemental and condemnatory.

[DR. BELCH]

--many times before but...there some some women who can do more for me with one raised eyebrow than two [expletive deleted]s and a [expletive deleted].

The nude has been a subject of art since time in memorial, and the standard of beauty has changed--heavyset women used to be considered fertile and beautiful creatures; these days a dame practically has to look like a cancer patient. Personally these women concern me; I'm six-foot-one and 225 pounds. If I were to be intimate with a five-foot-tall 100-pound lass, I'd be scared of crushing her.

Recall the episode of Seinfeld in which Jerry's girlfriend tells him, "There's good naked, and there's bad naked!" Let's face it, a nude woman is beautiful, but a naked man? Between the hair and the flab I don't see how they look at us with love in their hearts. On a good day I resemble a gorilla....

[DerekPowers]

well, i for one love the nudity in anime. Freebooter, i have to disagree, i think it is totally necessary for melfina to be naked when she pilots the outlaw star. not only does she have to like hook up with the ship, but i think that its SOOO cool that there is a naked chick piloting the ship. that is just crazy, come on, its perfect. think about it, its so great, a naked girl in some tube of liquid piloting a space ship. thats just tight. peace.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Well, nudity in anime is often for the ogling...but it is also used just as much for comedy. Rumiko Takahashi, a FEMALE manga artist, frequently uses nudity, nipples and all, in her work...and often for comedy and to embarrassment. I think that showing nudity has become some sort of outlet for the society...poking "fun" at nudity and pretty much treating it like harmless cheesecake. In theory, I agree with this...sometimes nudity CAN be used for characterization, especially in terms of comedic embarrassment.

Actually, many female comic artists in Japan are fairly open about expressing nudity in their works.

In my opinion, nudity itself is fairly harmless. I oppose glorification of rape and more sadistic sexual acts, however.

[Calhoun07]

Ok, I promise to get a little further back on topic here! (no more talking about preachers and what people mean when they condemn others, tho I do want to reply to a question posted earlier....the squawks loudest, lays biggest egg line....I WISH it was mine, but I cannot lay claim to it. It comes from one of my favorite musicians in the entire world, Steve Taylor. In his song "Guilty By Association" Steve sings about people who use the Christian Yellow Pages (yes, there is one. I've seen it) and people who read books like "Religious Rock and Roll-A Wolf in Sheep's Clothing" by Jimmy Swaggart and people who watch televangelists telethons. The "when the chicken squawks loudest gonna lay a big egg" appears in the verse about televangelists. And I have always liked that phrase ever since.)

But...back on topic! I do agree that tasteful nudity isn't harmful, nor does it have to lead to anything erotic. I am with Dr Belch on this one that the way a woman raises one eye brow can do more for me than seeing her breasts on TV. I mean, look 80% of the music videos out there today. They don't have nudity but they have far more sexuality in them than Joey's wall paper.

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by calhoun07
Ok, I promise to get a little further back on topic here! (no more talking about preachers and what people mean when they condemn others,

I'll cheerfully go along with that, too!

I've never found cartoon nudity to be even remotely a sexual turn-on . Same thing, mostly, with most nudes, be they in painting or photography. They're so obviously artificial (either in form or in content) that that I'm unmoved.

In fact, like Belch, I'm much more likely "salute" when a it's the face turned provocatively toward me (in life or in art) than a whole body. In fact, the greater the concentration on the face, the more likely I am to be piqued. I think that's why Ingrid Bergman or Lauren Bacall, swaddled in elaborate 40s clothes but whose faces burn through the screen, affect me more than all the undressed or spandexed supermodels draping themselves about today.

[Blast Hornet]

I personally don't care for Senseless Nudity, As in Ghost in the Shell, What was the point of the first nude scene in it before she cloaks? when you find out eventually find out she can do that fully clothed. I understand androids being naked and I don't make a huge fuss over that, With Melfina it's ok. But By no means I don't care what the reason rape in Anime is not acceptable. I understand Japan doesn't have a high crime rate. But I personally get annoyed at the fact there is no actual guide to warn you if it has rape in it, I personally have to run around with my little pad and paper, Hey have You seen this anime? Does it have rape in it?! It's really annoying and makes me seem like some freaky sexual predator. So They should atleast have warnings on them.