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  1. #41
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    I actually love the Digimon dub over the original. What won me over was that unlike Pokemon, the added gags really made RFOL when I was young.
    I mean, the original songs were great too, along with the movies.


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    Ominous Flare is offline Member
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    Let's face it - most of the hate garnered towards Digimon is solely because of the awful dialogue in the dub.

    How I feel towards Digimon today... It's hard to say, considering that I'm watching Pokemon D/P right now and haven't watched Digimon for a long time (due to the downfall brought about by the god-awful Xros Wars). I'm glad to hear about the 15th anniversary Adventure revival, of course, but strictly speaking, Digimon has seen better days.

    You won't hear me arguing about the plot quality of the seasons prior to Xros Wars, of course, especially when compared to Pokemon (Seriously, Satoshi? A level 5 Snivy? And what's with Cyrus' mysterious disappearance in D/P?). However, it's undeniable that Pocket Monsters is doing a hell lot better than Digimon in terms of its anime and movies - profit-wise anyway, let's not going into its writing quality. I really wish to see a comeback from Digimon next year with the release of Digimon Adventure 03, and not just any comeback, but one that could match the quality of Digimon Tamers that practically blew both Digimon and Pokemon away with its superior standards as a respectable adult anime... but that's unlikely to happen any time soon. This is more likely just a gimmick to sell the 15th anniversary merchandises, unfortunately.

    Seriously, I miss the days when Tamers was around. Digimon deconstructed many of the tired tropes and cliches of Pokemon and was finally the cool kid in the neighborhood, of which the most prominent one was probably fighting each other with your Pokemon, an attitude which Ruki accepted with stride. Don't get me started with Juri's depression arc - that's what a real depression looks like in real life, Pokemon, not Hikari's semi-emo phase.

    Honestly though, D/P is undeniably Pokemon's best season yet - dub songs aside. It's a shame to see that it couldn't match Digimon's maturity for long when Best Wishes came along. I don't even know what X/Y looks like now, with that Serena kid around. Hopefully, with 2015, Digimon could seize this chance to out-compete Pokemon once again, just like in the old days, when actually intelligent people know for a fact which of the franchise has the better story and characters. I love my Pokemon, but as long as Tamers is unbeaten (seriously, it's written by the guy who wrote Serial Experiments Lain, what do you expect?), my heart will always stand with Digimon.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Flare View Post
    Let's face it - most of the hate garnered towards Digimon is solely because of the awful dialogue in the dub.

    How I feel towards Digimon today... It's hard to say, considering that I'm watching Pokemon D/P right now and haven't watched Digimon for a long time (due to the downfall brought about by the god-awful Xros Wars). I'm glad to hear about the 15th anniversary Adventure revival, of course, but strictly speaking, Digimon has seen better days.
    Aside from Young Hunters, I didn't think that Xros Wars was that bad. It lacked more interesting human characters in the main cast, but the Digimon had more personality, I like the relationship between Shoutmon and Taiki and it would have had a satisfying conclusion if it did end after the Death General arc. It wasn't perfect, but I thought it was pretty good for the most part. If I considered Young Hunters as part of the series instead of its own, then that would have brought it down a lot more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Flare
    You won't hear me arguing about the plot quality of the seasons prior to Xros Wars, of course, especially when compared to Pokemon (Seriously, Satoshi? A level 5 Snivy? And what's with Cyrus' mysterious disappearance in D/P?). However, it's undeniable that Pocket Monsters is doing a hell lot better than Digimon in terms of its anime and movies - profit-wise anyway, let's not going into its writing quality. I really wish to see a comeback from Digimon next year with the release of Digimon Adventure 03, and not just any comeback, but one that could match the quality of Digimon Tamers that practically blew both Digimon and Pokemon away with its superior standards as a respectable adult anime... but that's unlikely to happen any time soon. This is more likely just a gimmick to sell the 15th anniversary merchandises, unfortunately.
    I don't think that Cyrus' disappearance was that mysterious. He was able to create his own universe with the power of Diagla and Pailka and proceeded to go there where he most likely died if his new universe didn't have air, food or water. Considering that Pokemon doesn't take breaks in-between its series and the fact that its merchandise still sells like hotcakes, it isn't surprising that it does beat out Digimon in terms of profit. While the Adventure sequel is most likely a gimmick to sell 15th anniversary merchandise and an attempt to appeal to nostalgia, that doesn't mean that it can't have good writing to go with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Flare
    Seriously, I miss the days when Tamers was around. Digimon deconstructed many of the tired tropes and cliches of Pokemon and was finally the cool kid in the neighborhood, of which the most prominent one was probably fighting each other with your Pokemon, an attitude which Ruki accepted with stride. Don't get me started with Juri's depression arc - that's what a real depression looks like in real life, Pokemon, not Hikari's semi-emo phase.
    Tamers was the best series for me and I'd like to see something along that line happen again, although I'm not sure if they'd want a series to go that dark again. I wouldn't say that Dawn was being semi-emo when she kept losing Contests. She was being depressed because she was losing self-confidence in herself and unsure if she should even continue being a Coordinator. Juri's depression was much different since that was due to losing Leomon. Both are understandable sources of depressions, so I don't think it's fair to say one is more real in the other in that case. It's more like Juri's depression was more intense because she was left emotionally and physically frozen in her sadness for much of the last arc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Flare
    Honestly though, D/P is undeniably Pokemon's best season yet - dub songs aside. It's a shame to see that it couldn't match Digimon's maturity for long when Best Wishes came along. I don't even know what X/Y looks like now, with that Serena kid around. Hopefully, with 2015, Digimon could seize this chance to out-compete Pokemon once again, just like in the old days, when actually intelligent people know for a fact which of the franchise has the better story and characters. I love my Pokemon, but as long as Tamers is unbeaten (seriously, it's written by the guy who wrote Serial Experiments Lain, what do you expect?), my heart will always stand with Digimon.
    DP definitely had the best writing out of the Pokemon series for me as well. I don't think that it could match with Digimon's maturity. Even before Tamers, they had kids dealing with their issues like divorced parents, being adopted and dealing with the loss of a family member. Stuff like that wouldn't really fit with Pokemon's tone. BW was a huge step backwards in practically every way. XY is better than BW so far, but not quite there with DP's quality for me. I think it would be more around AG's area in regards to quality. I don't think it was necessary to include the whole "actually intelligent people" since that comes off as a bit unnecessary rude, but story and character wise, Digimon usually beats out Pokemon in that regard. If given the choice, I would choose Pokemon over Digimon, but that's mainly because I love Pokemon more than Digimon as a whole.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Light Lucario View Post
    Aside from Young Hunters, I didn't think that Xros Wars was that bad. It lacked more interesting human characters in the main cast, but the Digimon had more personality, I like the relationship between Shoutmon and Taiki and it would have had a satisfying conclusion if it did end after the Death General arc. It wasn't perfect, but I thought it was pretty good for the most part. If I considered Young Hunters as part of the series instead of its own, then that would have brought it down a lot more.
    The overall storyline still felt like the same ol' crap all over again though. Frontier pretty much suffered from this because it's a rehash of Adventure's storyline - beat the bad guys that are trying to take over the Digital World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Light Lucario View Post
    Tamers was the best series for me and I'd like to see something along that line happen again, although I'm not sure if they'd want a series to go that dark again. I wouldn't say that Dawn was being semi-emo when she kept losing Contests. She was being depressed because she was losing self-confidence in herself and unsure if she should even continue being a Coordinator. Juri's depression was much different since that was due to losing Leomon. Both are understandable sources of depressions, so I don't think it's fair to say one is more real in the other in that case. It's more like Juri's depression was more intense because she was left emotionally and physically frozen in her sadness for much of the last arc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Light Lucario View Post
    I don't think it was necessary to include the whole "actually intelligent people" since that comes off as a bit unnecessary rude, but story and character wise, Digimon usually beats out Pokemon in that regard. If given the choice, I would choose Pokemon over Digimon, but that's mainly because I love Pokemon more than Digimon as a whole.
    Fair enough. I'm still slightly biased against Pokemon, despite enjoying watching D/P so far, mostly because of all the unreasonable hate against Digimon by Poke-fans. I mean, most of their excuses are just downright ridiculous, so I can't help joining in the unfair bashing game from time to time.

    I mean, I do enjoy D/P so far, but let's face it, even the gamers hate the Pokemon anime with a passion. It's an inferior piece of property meant to sell the games to the kids with friendship and idealistic BS. Move errors, anime-logic, the lack of a level system, Ash losing the leagues every time (getting Top 8/4/2 is still considered losing), the lack of an Elite Four League, the inferior quality of Team Plasma, not to mention a lack of battling between Ash and Cyrus, and don't get me started with the repetitive storylines outside of D/P (Johto had the worst fillers), cheesy dialogues, childish plot-lines, and some of the most cliche characters you could find in the whole of anime (even with May considered). There are obviously a lot of problems with the anime, yet the fanboys continued to hold it up like it's some golden cream of the crop. At least we Digimon fans have a legit reason to like our show, even going as far as criticising the major flaws of inferior seasons outside of Tamers.

    I mean, seriously, when compared to far more quality shows like Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex, Attack on Titans, Madoka Magica, Gintama, Avatar: The Last Airbender, One Piece, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood, etc, etc. Pokemon is on the level of Power Rangers, with D/P maybe matching the quality of PR In Space (which I considered to be the best season yet with the most well-written storyline). It's a kids show. Don't lunk it up with something actually quality that discusses divorces and child abuse like Digimon.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Flare View Post
    The overall storyline still felt like the same ol' crap all over again though. Frontier pretty much suffered from this because it's a rehash of Adventure's storyline - beat the bad guys that are trying to take over the Digital World.
    Aside from the basic premise involving kids being stuck in the Digital World fighting evil Digimon, I don't see how that's much of a rehash of Adventure. It's the same basic concept for the storyline, but that's not really a rehash since it handles the concept, for better or for worse, differently with different characters. Besides that, I really enjoyed Frontier. It took awhile for it to get going and the last arc really brought it down unfortunately, but I didn't think it was really that bad that it had the same basic premise as Adventure with a bunch of kids being stuck in the Digital World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Flare
    Fair enough. I'm still slightly biased against Pokemon, despite enjoying watching D/P so far, mostly because of all the unreasonable hate against Digimon by Poke-fans. I mean, most of their excuses are just downright ridiculous, so I can't help joining in the unfair bashing game from time to time.
    I honestly don't see much hatred against Digimon from Pokemon fans. The only thing I can remember Pokemon fans saying was claiming that Digimon was trying to copycat Pokemon due to how it came out not too long after the Pokemon anime started to air, but anyone could just watch any episode of both series and could tell that they were apples and oranges.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Flare
    I mean, I do enjoy D/P so far, but let's face it, even the gamers hate the Pokemon anime with a passion. It's an inferior piece of property meant to sell the games to the kids with friendship and idealistic BS. Move errors, anime-logic, the lack of a level system, Ash losing the leagues every time (getting Top 8/4/2 is still considered losing), the lack of an Elite Four League, the inferior quality of Team Plasma, not to mention a lack of battling between Ash and Cyrus, and don't get me started with the repetitive storylines outside of D/P (Johto had the worst fillers), cheesy dialogues, childish plot-lines, and some of the most cliche characters you could find in the whole of anime (even with May considered). There are obviously a lot of problems with the anime, yet the fanboys continued to hold it up like it's some golden cream of the crop. At least we Digimon fans have a legit reason to like our show, even going as far as criticising the major flaws of inferior seasons outside of Tamers.
    I play the games, but I still don't hate the anime. It was never meant to be a faithful adaptation of the video games. Even back when it first started, it took a lot of liberties with the source material and cut out key events, like the Sliph Co take-over by Team Rocket, so I see no reason to hate it for that. I have disliked how they've handled some great aspects of the games, such as ruining Bianca's character in general and only have an arc for a completely boring version of Team Plasma, but the anime does exist primarily to promote the merchandise while being a loose adaptation of the video games. Plus, the level concept really wouldn't work as well in the anime as it does in the games. Strength being determined by levels is more of video game logic that wouldn't really translate that well in other formats in my opinion. I'm pretty sure no one expected Ash to face off against Cyrus since he never did that with any of the other evil teams in a one-on-one battle. As for always losing, that is a bit annoying, but I stopped expecting Ash to win a regional league years ago. I'm also not sure how May was that cliched, but some of the plot-lines are childish because it is for children. I know that Digimon is for children too, but it seems a bit strange to complain about plot-lines being childish in a show where the main target demographic are grade schoolers. I honestly find Johto to be underrated. It did have a lot of fillers, but most of them weren't really that bad to me, or at least I think that the fanbase tends to exaggerate how bad they were. The pacing was really terrible, but I can kind of cut them a bit of slack there because this was the first time the writers had to stretch out an entire journey for a generation. They have improved a bit in doing so in my opinion.

    Aside from maybe the first season, I don't think I've seen a significant amount of people praise the Pokemon anime as if it was some terrific anime and honestly I think that the original series is pretty overrated, especially the Kanto saga. I don't really like the implication as if Pokemon fans don't have a legit reason to like the anime. That just comes off as a bit rude and arrogant to me. Digimon is good and most of its series are better than Pokemon writing wise. There are at least a couple that I would say Pokemon is better, Young Hunters being the most recent example of a really bad Digimon series not being better than Pokemon, but that doesn't mean that Digimon doesn't have its own flaws. Even Tamers has flaws. I think it was the best Digimon series, but it was not perfect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Flare
    I mean, seriously, when compared to far more quality shows like Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex, Attack on Titans, Madoka Magica, Gintama, Avatar: The Last Airbender, One Piece, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood, etc, etc. Pokemon is on the level of Power Rangers, with D/P maybe matching the quality of PR In Space (which I considered to be the best season yet with the most well-written storyline). It's a kids show. Don't lunk it up with something actually quality that discusses divorces and child abuse like Digimon.
    Avatar: The Last Airbender isn't an anime series. The art style is influenced from anime, but that's not really the same thing. Also, all the anime titles that you mentioned aren't aimed at the same target demographic as Pokemon. They're all aimed at an older audience, even a bit slightly more with shonen series like One Piece or Brotherhood. Pokemon is a kids show. No one is going to argue that, but that does not make it bad. It just means that it is written for kids in mind. Digimon is able to include more serious concepts with its characters and themes to give it an edge writing wise, but it is also written for kids in mind. The tone in the last sentence also kind of bothers me. I understand that you like Digimon over Pokemon and that's perfectly fine, but you don't have to belittle both the show and the people who like it in the process. That just comes off as unnecessary rude.

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    Ominous Flare is offline Member
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    Unnecessarily rude this, unnecessarily rude that. Boy, do you have your rose-tinted glasses on today, huh? I mean, really, just take a look at some of your remarks; they just ooze "biasness" everywhere with your sub-par defense. Sure, I may have came off as rude, but at least I was accurate. You, on the other hand, are off the mark as soon as you commented that Pokemon fans don't hate the anime. Try visiting YouTube from time to time. Google helps too, as it really filters out your bed of roses from the blatant hatred. Just Google something like, "Pokemon anime sucks" and you'll have your answer, but YouTube is more reliable and accurate as it really shows just how many people hate the anime without the need of such specific search engine filtering. Almost every Pokemon anime video will have 8 out of 10 people making a remark on how stupid Ash and his adventures are, let alone his battle techniques.

    Quote Originally Posted by Light Lucario View Post
    Aside from the basic premise involving kids being stuck in the Digital World fighting evil Digimon, I don't see how that's much of a rehash of Adventure. It's the same basic concept for the storyline, but that's not really a rehash since it handles the concept, for better or for worse, differently with different characters. Besides that, I really enjoyed Frontier. It took awhile for it to get going and the last arc really brought it down unfortunately, but I didn't think it was really that bad that it had the same basic premise as Adventure with a bunch of kids being stuck in the Digital World.
    I don't see how it's not the same thing. Adventure was about evil Digimon taking over the Digital World and children fighting to save it; Frontier was about evil Digimon taking over the Digital World and children fighting to save it. At least Adventure involved the real world, Frontier kinda just copied that bit for the last few episodes.

    Seriously, most of Frontier's episodes could be summed up to "new evolutions" and "fighting bad guys".

    Xros Wars did it worse. I thought that it was going to be something different when I first watched it, but it turned out to be the same ol' "defend the Digital World from bad guys" premise all over again.

    Try comparing Tamers for example; that's what originality looks like. Chiaki Konaka, the writer of both Lain and Tamers had a very specific plot in mind when writing Tamers, one that he used as one lengthy metaphor to conclude his lecture on human's relationship with technology that he left ambiguous in Lain. Look up his interviews and you'll see what I mean. Research. As in hard data that back up your claims, not pointless "I don't see how they are the same" biasness.

    Speaking of research, do you know that the ratings of the Pokemon anime had gone down ever since the end of Johto? Surprising, I know, considering that DP > AG > Johto. But the creator of the anime himself said that he regretted replacing Misty, and that the anime didn't go the way he had intended in later seasons (AG and DP), which seems like pure rubbish to me considering that those two seasons were written better, but I guess the anime was always intended to be idealistic BS, so there's no loss there with Best Wishes I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Light Lucario View Post
    I honestly don't see much hatred against Digimon from Pokemon fans. The only thing I can remember Pokemon fans saying was claiming that Digimon was trying to copycat Pokemon due to how it came out not too long after the Pokemon anime started to air, but anyone could just watch any episode of both series and could tell that they were apples and oranges.
    Again, YouTube and Google are your best friends. People are still bashing Digimon on the Internet even today. It doesn't take a lot of effort to know this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Light Lucario View Post
    I play the games, but I still don't hate the anime. It was never meant to be a faithful adaptation of the video games. Even back when it first started, it took a lot of liberties with the source material and cut out key events, like the Sliph Co take-over by Team Rocket, so I see no reason to hate it for that. I have disliked how they've handled some great aspects of the games, such as ruining Bianca's character in general and only have an arc for a completely boring version of Team Plasma, but the anime does exist primarily to promote the merchandise while being a loose adaptation of the video games. Plus, the level concept really wouldn't work as well in the anime as it does in the games. Strength being determined by levels is more of video game logic that wouldn't really translate that well in other formats in my opinion. I'm pretty sure no one expected Ash to face off against Cyrus since he never did that with any of the other evil teams in a one-on-one battle. As for always losing, that is a bit annoying, but I stopped expecting Ash to win a regional league years ago. I'm also not sure how May was that cliched, but some of the plot-lines are childish because it is for children. I know that Digimon is for children too, but it seems a bit strange to complain about plot-lines being childish in a show where the main target demographic are grade schoolers. I honestly find Johto to be underrated. It did have a lot of fillers, but most of them weren't really that bad to me, or at least I think that the fanbase tends to exaggerate how bad they were. The pacing was really terrible, but I can kind of cut them a bit of slack there because this was the first time the writers had to stretch out an entire journey for a generation. They have improved a bit in doing so in my opinion.
    Well, you being the exceptional. The majority hates the anime. Again, Google and YouTube. Ash's battling techniques suck, period, even in DP. It's the reason why he lost to Paul when real players could take him AND Silver down easily five times over, even without EV training and IV breeding, both of which the anime also excluded. Yeah, real nice, Brock, your breeding skills also suck, considering that you don't mass-breed Ditto or bother to check the nature and IVs of your Pokemon.

    Also, you seem to be cutting a lot of slack for the Pokemon anime, implicating your biasness. While I did the same for Tamers, I have good reasons to do so, as I'll explain below to respond to your "Tamers wasn't perfect" remark. Furthermore, it seems "strange" to complain about plot-lines being childish in a kids show? Hello Avatar and Teen Titans, both of which are kids cartoons with mature storylines. They show that just because it's a kids show, it doesn't have to be retarded.

    Quote Originally Posted by Light Lucario View Post
    Aside from maybe the first season, I don't think I've seen a significant amount of people praise the Pokemon anime as if it was some terrific anime and honestly I think that the original series is pretty overrated, especially the Kanto saga. I don't really like the implication as if Pokemon fans don't have a legit reason to like the anime. That just comes off as a bit rude and arrogant to me. Digimon is good and most of its series are better than Pokemon writing wise. There are at least a couple that I would say Pokemon is better, Young Hunters being the most recent example of a really bad Digimon series not being better than Pokemon, but that doesn't mean that Digimon doesn't have its own flaws. Even Tamers has flaws. I think it was the best Digimon series, but it was not perfect.
    Even when you compare Pokemon's best season with Digimon's best, Digimon still wins hands down because of the solid writing in Tamers. I don't know if you are referring to the subs or the dubs, but if it's the latter, of course you'll think that it's "not that good." Americans seem to like to add a lot of cheese to their cartoons, unlike the Japanese. The original version had a lot of mature dialogues that you wouldn't normally see in kids cartoons, not to mention tackling serious topics that even Adventure couldn't match.

    All Pokemon DP talk about are superficial stuff like "fate" and "friendship," while Tamers dished out hardcore Sci-Fi plot-lines like human-technology-relationship, real world depression issues (yes, Juri was intended to be a metaphor of depression cases in real life; again, check the interviews), racism against Chinese in Japan (Jiangliang/Henry), and of course, children dealing with the death of a beloved. What does Pokemon talk about? Oh right, Dialga and Palkia mythologies that don't exist in real life. Showing a Pokemon's inner strength which again doesn't apply in real life, unless you're a dog-breeder or some crap. That leaves dog-fighting, I guess, which Pokemon hands out in spades.

    But Tamers' greatest strength over Pokemon has to be the well-written characters. Ruki alone far outweigh Hikari as a superior female character with her depth. Similar to Kasumi, she's the first and only Lancer of the Digimon series (look up TVTropes if you don't know what Lancer means). She's tough, pragmatic, and was a perfect counterpart to Jiangliang's pacifist nature that was a reflection of Pokemon's naive and idealistic story. Even Takato was a better protagonist than the blend Satoshi (and boy, was he blend compared to previous seasons). Unlike the copy and paste hot-headed shounen that Satoshi was, Takato was your typical Japanese ten year old who's carefree and naive, until he's met with adult issues that kids couldn't handle. This was important because Chiaki wanted to address the issue that kids weren't being taught how to handle such issues during that time, so again, another deep metaphor for you.

    That's not even going into Tamers' best character, Impmon, who's the metaphor of an ex-murderer dealing with his guilt. Try imagining a ten year old kid like Juri who had her beloved one killed by an older thirty-something in real life (and then proceeded to drown in a pit of depression) and you should have a good picture of what his role is in the story.

    Each character of Tamers have a solid theme going on that brought a lot of depth to the story. Stories with themes are often, though not always, the best stories. The Dark Knight is one prominent example. Pokemon, on the other hand, is merely there to sell toys, even with DP considered.

    Seriously, most of what made DP's story so good was due to the solid writing in the games (Paul inspired by Silver in GSC, while Team Galactic was from DPPt). Take those away and you'll be left with the usually stupid storyline the anime dishes out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Light Lucario View Post
    Avatar: The Last Airbender isn't an anime series. The art style is influenced from anime, but that's not really the same thing. Also, all the anime titles that you mentioned aren't aimed at the same target demographic as Pokemon. They're all aimed at an older audience, even a bit slightly more with shonen series like One Piece or Brotherhood. Pokemon is a kids show. No one is going to argue that, but that does not make it bad. It just means that it is written for kids in mind. Digimon is able to include more serious concepts with its characters and themes to give it an edge writing wise, but it is also written for kids in mind.
    Avatar isn't an anime, that's why I didn't quote it as such. I said that Avatar was a better SHOW, not ANIME. Doh.

    Even if it's intended for kids, sure, it might not make it bad (a really subjective word we have here, don't we? "Bad"), but the fact remains that it makes it unintelligent and dumbed down, which yes, could essentially mean "Bad" as well, in the eyes of many. If you think unintelligent shows are good for your kids, then hey, go ahead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Flare View Post
    Unnecessarily rude this, unnecessarily rude that. Boy, do you have your rose-tinted glasses on today, huh? I mean, really, just take a look at some of your remarks; they just ooze "biasness" everywhere with your sub-par defense. Sure, I may have came off as rude, but at least I was accurate. You, on the other hand, are off the mark as soon as you commented that Pokemon fans don't hate the anime. Try visiting YouTube from time to time. Google helps too, as it really filters out your bed of roses from the blatant hatred. Just Google something like, "Pokemon anime sucks" and you'll have your answer, but YouTube is more reliable and accurate as it really shows just how many people hate the anime without the need of such specific search engine filtering. Almost every Pokemon anime video will have 8 out of 10 people making a remark on how stupid Ash and his adventures are, let alone his battle techniques.
    Was it really necessary to insult me and have such an attitude? I don't have my rose colored glasses on since I can fully admit the series' flaws and the fact that most Digimon series are better than it in writing-wise. I'm also pretty sure that I didn't say that Pokemon fans don't hate the anime. I said that I don't see that much hate for it and that I don't hate it even though I play the games. As for YouTube, I don't generally look up videos there, and I'm not really sure if that's an accurate way to determine how many people really hate the anime. Everyone complains about Ash, even in the fanbase.\

    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Flare
    I don't see how it's not the same thing. Adventure was about evil Digimon taking over the Digital World and children fighting to save it; Frontier was about evil Digimon taking over the Digital World and children fighting to save it. At least Adventure involved the real world, Frontier kinda just copied that bit for the last few episodes.

    Seriously, most of Frontier's episodes could be summed up to "new evolutions" and "fighting bad guys".

    Xros Wars did it worse. I thought that it was going to be something different when I first watched it, but it turned out to be the same ol' "defend the Digital World from bad guys" premise all over again.
    It has the same basic premise, but I feel like that's also ignoring key differences if you're going to focus just on that and say that they're reashing Adventure.

    [quote=Ominous Flare]Try comparing Tamers for example; that's what originality looks like. Chiaki Konaka, the writer of both Lain and Tamers had a very specific plot in mind when writing Tamers, one that he used as one lengthy metaphor to conclude his lecture on human's relationship with technology that he left ambiguous in Lain. Look up his interviews and you'll see what I mean. Research. As in hard data that back up your claims, not pointless "I don't see how they are the same" biasness.[quote]

    I've read up on some of his interviews, which are interesting. Again, you did not need to throw in such an attitude at the end there. Adventure, Frontier and Xros Wars aren't the same series for having the same basic premise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Flare
    Speaking of research, do you know that the ratings of the Pokemon anime had gone down ever since the end of Johto? Surprising, I know, considering that DP > AG > Johto. But the creator of the anime himself said that he regretted replacing Misty, and that the anime didn't go the way he had intended in later seasons (AG and DP), which seems like pure rubbish to me considering that those two seasons were written better, but I guess the anime was always intended to be idealistic BS, so there's no loss there with Best Wishes I guess.
    I'm aware of that as well. They were either going to replace Misty or Team Rocket at the end of Johto to increase ratings and I still think that they made the best choice there. I don't recall reading any regrets for replacing Misty, especially when she was replaced because she had the weakest reason for being in the cast, but perhaps I'm forgetting that detail.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Flare
    Again, YouTube and Google are your best friends. People are still bashing Digimon on the Internet even today. It doesn't take a lot of effort to know this.
    Again, I generally don't watch a lot of videos on YouTube and mindless bashing, assuming that's what people are doing with both Pokemon and Digimon, doesn't really mean much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Flare
    Well, you being the exceptional. The majority hates the anime. Again, Google and YouTube. Ash's battling techniques suck, period, even in DP. It's the reason why he lost to Paul when real players could take him AND Silver down easily five times over, even without EV training and IV breeding, both of which the anime also excluded. Yeah, real nice, Brock, your breeding skills also suck, considering that you don't mass-breed Ditto or bother to check the nature and IVs of your Pokemon.
    Considering the amount of people I've met online and in person who both watch the show and play the video game, I'm not sure how much of an exception I really am. Of course, I have seen Pokemon gamers who have hated the anime too, but not to the point where I see vast amount of hate. I'm pretty sure that natures, as they are in the games, and IVs don't exist in the anime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Flare
    Also, you seem to be cutting a lot of slack for the Pokemon anime, implicating your biasness. While I did the same for Tamers, I have good reasons to do so, as I'll explain below to respond to your "Tamers wasn't perfect" remark. Furthermore, it seems "strange" to complain about plot-lines being childish in a kids show? Hello Avatar and Teen Titans, both of which are kids cartoons with mature storylines. They show that just because it's a kids show, it doesn't have to be retarded.
    I still don't like the superior tone I'm getting from your good reasons comment. I'm aware of some kids cartoons with mature storylines, but those are unfortunately the excepition rather than the norm. I'm not saying that more kids shows can't have more serious elements or that kids shows have to be stupid, but complaining that a children's show made for children is childish just seems a bit strange to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Flare
    Even when you compare Pokemon's best season with Digimon's best, Digimon still wins hands down because of the solid writing in Tamers. I don't know if you are referring to the subs or the dubs, but if it's the latter, of course you'll think that it's "not that good." Americans seem to like to add a lot of cheese to their cartoons, unlike the Japanese. The original version had a lot of mature dialogues that you wouldn't normally see in kids cartoons, not to mention tackling serious topics that even Adventure couldn't match.
    I've seen all of Tamers both subbed and dubbed. It is the best Digimon series and of course it would beat out anything from Pokemon's various series. The only Digimon series that I don't think are better than Pokemon are Young Hunters and maybe Adventure 02.

    [quote=Ominous FlareAll Pokemon DP talk about are superficial stuff like "fate" and "friendship," while Tamers dished out hardcore Sci-Fi plot-lines like human-technology-relationship, real world depression issues (yes, Juri was intended to be a metaphor of depression cases in real life; again, check the interviews), racism against Chinese in Japan (Jiangliang/Henry), and of course, children dealing with the death of a beloved. What does Pokemon talk about? Oh right, Dialga and Palkia mythologies that don't exist in real life. Showing a Pokemon's inner strength which again doesn't apply in real life, unless you're a dog-breeder or some crap. That leaves dog-fighting, I guess, which Pokemon hands out in spades.[/quote]

    I've read the interviews, so I'm aware of what Juri was intended for and that was handled quite nicely. Pokemon battles aren't like dog-fighting. Those are to the death and where people don't care about if their animal gets hurt, which is pretty much exactly the opposite of Pokemon battles. They've always used battles as a means to emphasize the connection and friendship between humans and Pokemon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Flare
    But Tamers' greatest strength over Pokemon has to be the well-written characters. Ruki alone far outweigh Hikari as a superior female character with her depth. Similar to Kasumi, she's the first and only Lancer of the Digimon series (look up TVTropes if you don't know what Lancer means). She's tough, pragmatic, and was a perfect counterpart to Jiangliang's pacifist nature that was a reflection of Pokemon's naive and idealistic story. Even Takato was a better protagonist than the blend Satoshi (and boy, was he blend compared to previous seasons). Unlike the copy and paste hot-headed shounen that Satoshi was, Takato was your typical Japanese ten year old who's carefree and naive, until he's met with adult issues that kids couldn't handle. This was important because Chiaki wanted to address the issue that kids weren't being taught how to handle such issues during that time, so again, another deep metaphor for you.

    That's not even going into Tamers' best character, Impmon, who's the metaphor of an ex-murderer dealing with his guilt. Try imagining a ten year old kid like Juri who had her beloved one killed by an older thirty-something in real life (and then proceeded to drown in a pit of depression) and you should have a good picture of what his role is in the story.

    Each character of Tamers have a solid theme going on that brought a lot of depth to the story. Stories with themes are often, though not always, the best stories. The Dark Knight is one prominent example. Pokemon, on the other hand, is merely there to sell toys, even with DP considered.
    I'm well aware of what Tamers is and how all of the characters were handled. It was easily the best Digimon series and again, Pokemon is not nearly as a good as it, especially when it comes to the characters. I never said otherwise The only thing I said that there are a couple of Digimon series that aren't better than Pokemon, but that does not include Tamers. I think that you jumped to conclusions there a bit, especially when I already mentioned that Tamers was my favorite series and that most of its series beats out Pokemon. Although, Tamers also existed to sell toys. It had a far better storyline, cast of characters and writing than I think anyone could have predicted, but it is still a toyetic series that existed to plug out new merchandise, just like Pokemon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Flare
    Seriously, most of what made DP's story so good was due to the solid writing in the games (Paul inspired by Silver in GSC, while Team Galactic was from DPPt). Take those away and you'll be left with the usually stupid storyline the anime dishes out.
    I wouldn't say the only good qualities of DP came from Paul and Team Galatic. They played a huge role in it, especially Paul, but the battles were still quite good and Dawn's Contest arc was pretty good, even though I feel it peaked after the Wallace Cup, to where I think that the series still would have been good. Obviously not as good, but it would have been pretty enjoyable I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Flare
    Avatar isn't an anime, that's why I didn't quote it as such. I said that Avatar was a better SHOW, not ANIME. Doh.
    Okay, my fault for not seeing the show when you were listing mostly anime titles, but I really don't see why you needed to be rude when correcting me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Flare
    Even if it's intended for kids, sure, it might not make it bad (a really subjective word we have here, don't we? "Bad"), but the fact remains that it makes it unintelligent and dumbed down, which yes, could essentially mean "Bad" as well, in the eyes of many. If you think unintelligent shows are good for your kids, then hey, go ahead.
    I don't think that a kids show that doesn't have serious element would make it unintelligent. While there are a lot of flaws with the various Pokemon series, I don't think I'd label it as unintelligent either. It doesn't really talk down to kids.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Light Lucario View Post
    and I'm not really sure if that's an accurate way to determine how many people really hate the anime. Everyone complains about Ash, even in the fanbase.\
    GameFAQ too, FYI (especially GameFAQ's community, actually), as well as IGN forums, Gaia Online (another anime community), MyAnimeList forums, Hummingbird forums, Pokecommunity forums, etc, etc. Serebii does less complaining towards the anime, but that's because they are a bunch of hippies who are anti-character bashing, wanting to "keep the peace among people." They're probably apologetic liberals too, but that's getting too political for this topic.

    Sure, some of these communities might not exactly be your "mature lot" (GameFAQ and IGN especially), but they still represent a significant amount of people throughout the world that hate the anime with a burning passion, sometimes with good reasons too.

    In fact, one doesn't have to look far on the Internet to find a Pokemon anime hater. Ash even has a nickname, "Pussy Ash," for his inferior skills as a trainer compared to real players or even in-game trainers like Red and Gold.

    Quote Originally Posted by Light Lucario View Post
    It has the same basic premise, but I feel like that's also ignoring key differences if you're going to focus just on that and say that they're reashing Adventure.
    Minor differences that hardly matter. They are plot-lines that are either mediocre or worse. While Frontier did have a few sub-plots that were decent at best, the relationship between Takuya and Koji is practically Taichi and Yamato Part 2 - hothead meets coolhead. Talk about a rehash. And then of course, you have the standard vulnerable damsel in distress, a female character worse than Miyako in 02. Miyako might be annoying, but at least she was distinct enough to have her own interesting personality. Izumi, on the other hand, was as blend as Hikari in DP, a character that's one of the factors that prevented DP from reaching its full potential. Contests are stupid and for girls. Heck, even real life female gamers hate the Pokemon contests.

    Quote Originally Posted by Light Lucario View Post
    Adventure, Frontier and Xros Wars aren't the same series for having the same basic premise.
    As stated above, everything besides the premise was blend and boring. Subjective entertainment values aside, they are still weak writing. It's pretty obvious to see this objectively, actually. I've actually addressed this earlier in my previous post, when I mentioned the same ol' plot-lines being repeated; battle bad guys, gain new evolutions. That's pretty much what's going on with Frontier throughout the season.

    Sure, you may argue that the ill brother sub-plot was interesting. Fair enough - one point. That's all. That's what made Frontier better than Xros Wars in that respect, but Xros Wars was practically irredeemable. Nothing about that anime was interesting. In fact, watching paint dry would have been better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Light Lucario View Post
    I'm aware of that as well. They were either going to replace Misty or Team Rocket at the end of Johto to increase ratings and I still think that they made the best choice there. I don't recall reading any regrets for replacing Misty, especially when she was replaced because she had the weakest reason for being in the cast, but perhaps I'm forgetting that detail.
    Some smug at Pokecommunity gave me a link to an interview that mentioned that part about Misty. He even quoted articles that claimed that Misty's personality was far less insulting towards females than May and Dawn's "damsel in distress" type of bishoujo personality, something which I do feel incline to agree, considering that I'm a Misty fan myself. I never saw the logic in hating Misty as much as some people did. Her temper aside, she was at least competent as a trainer, unlike the sissy girls who compete in the inferior contests which nobody gave a damn about in the games. Thank god they replaced Dawn with someone who's actually trying to be a type-specialized Pokemon Master in Best Wishes (Iris), though that probably won't help much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Light Lucario View Post
    Again, I generally don't watch a lot of videos on YouTube and mindless bashing, assuming that's what people are doing with both Pokemon and Digimon, doesn't really mean much.
    The existence of haters do mean much, especially when they exist in large quantities. That's why we have petitions and such, to petition the elimination of certain anime we hate. When this number reaches thousands, it does mean much, so yes, a large number of haters do mean much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Light Lucario View Post
    Considering the amount of people I've met online and in person who both watch the show and play the video game, I'm not sure how much of an exception I really am. Of course, I have seen Pokemon gamers who have hated the anime too, but not to the point where I see vast amount of hate.
    See top of post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Light Lucario View Post
    I'm pretty sure that natures, as they are in the games, and IVs don't exist in the anime.
    Much like the lack of a level system in the anime, this is why the anime sucks, because it failed to live up to the potential an anime titled "POKEMON" could reach. This isn't Pokemon at all, this is just "Anime Promo For The Games". Window-shopping without touching the inner-meat of IVs and EVs, in fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Light Lucario View Post
    I still don't like the superior tone I'm getting from your good reasons comment. I'm aware of some kids cartoons with mature storylines, but those are unfortunately the excepition rather than the norm. I'm not saying that more kids shows can't have more serious elements or that kids shows have to be stupid, but complaining that a children's show made for children is childish just seems a bit strange to me.
    Well, it seems strange to me that you seem to enjoy childish shows so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Light Lucario View Post
    I've seen all of Tamers both subbed and dubbed. It is the best Digimon series and of course it would beat out anything from Pokemon's various series. The only Digimon series that I don't think are better than Pokemon are Young Hunters and maybe Adventure 02.
    Two series out of six. X-Evolution, Savers, Tamers, and Adventure still make four series that could decently compete with Pokemon, of which the only decent season was DP. OS was the worst of the lot, but that's understandable. Johto had no excuse to be just as bad. AG fared better, and was an improvement. And Best Wishes? More like Worst Wishes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Light Lucario View Post
    I've read the interviews, so I'm aware of what Juri was intended for and that was handled quite nicely. Pokemon battles aren't like dog-fighting. Those are to the death and where people don't care about if their animal gets hurt, which is pretty much exactly the opposite of Pokemon battles. They've always used battles as a means to emphasize the connection and friendship between humans and Pokemon.
    lol Are you listening to yourself? Connection and friendship between humans and Pokemon? What does that even mean? What are you, a tree-hugger that connects with animals in real life? Woo, let's make friends with animals like Snow White. Gimme a break.

    Quote Originally Posted by Light Lucario View Post
    I wouldn't say the only good qualities of DP came from Paul and Team Galatic. They played a huge role in it, especially Paul, but the battles were still quite good and Dawn's Contest arc was pretty good, even though I feel it peaked after the Wallace Cup, to where I think that the series still would have been good. Obviously not as good, but it would have been pretty enjoyable I think.
    The contests sucked. They were a big waste of time in the anime. Who the hell even likes contests in real life? Battling is where Pokemon is at, evidenced by the fact that 70% of Pokemon fans are competitive battlers. You don't hear of "Pokemon Coordinators" in real life. That's stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Light Lucario View Post
    I don't think that a kids show that doesn't have serious element would make it unintelligent. While there are a lot of flaws with the various Pokemon series, I don't think I'd label it as unintelligent either. It doesn't really talk down to kids.
    No, it did something far worse - it talked down to adults. It's undeniable that many Pokemon fans are older kids that participate in competitive battling and such, so such childish things can be both tasteless for us big boys, especially when others started calling Pokemon players "childish" because of that stupid anime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Flare View Post

    lol Are you listening to yourself? Connection and friendship between humans and Pokemon? What does that even mean? What are you, a tree-hugger that connects with animals in real life? Woo, let's make friends with animals like Snow White. Gimme a break.
    Ugh, give me a break and lose this tone fast. Not to mention that this concept you make fun of is basically also everywhere in Digimon and that you've come into a Digimon thread and talked a whole lot about the merits of Digimon and then actually made fun of somebody else for enjoying a "childish" cartoon. Really?

    I've had it with this off-topic Pokemon vs Digimon debate + this attempt to use anecdotes to "prove" an opinion of the Pokemon anime is correct and that it's hated notwithstanding the fact it's been running nonstop on American television for years. If you want to argue the merits of it again do it in another thread and leave the antagonism behind.

    The topic of this thread: the last 15 years of Digimon + maybe what fans of it want from it from now on.
    I would suggest that it's not the medium, but the quality of perception and expression, that determines the significance of art. But what would a cartoonist know? -Bill Watterson


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