4Kids vs. PUSA- Which dub had the better writing?

**PC!** · 07-05-2010, 11:26 AM

This is an offshoot from the Pokemon Diamond/Pearl Japanese thread topic, and I thought we could have an interesting discussion without derailing that thread much further. ^^

I'll be honest, I don't like watching Pokemon nearly as much as I used to. I find the characters flat, boring, and frankly, rather unfun to watch. I've been placing the blame mostly on how the Japanese portray the characters nowadays, but I'm beginning to think maybe my feelings were misguided. Perhaps the source of my distaste doesn't rest on how the Japanese portray them, but rather, how they're written in the Pokemon USA dub.

To be honest, the farthest I've seen of the 4Kids dub is mid-Johto, and watching some of them the other day, I have to say I'm really enjoying it. All of the characters are fun without being overbearing. Even the rather lame episodes are enjoyable because the writing is sharp.

As for the PUSA dub, the protagonists are rarely funny. Team Rocket tries to be funny. Oh mercy, do they try. Pretty much every line they say is...weird, for lack of a better term. I think Meousa put it well when he said it was like they spoke jive. Take this clip for example. Listen to Team Rocket's dialogue. Notice how pretty much everything they say has to sound "witty." Sure, they had silly lines on occasion in the 4Kids dub, but nowadays they don't even talk like normal human beings anymore. And honestly, I don't think anything they say is really that funny.

What's your opinion on the writing between 4Kids and Pokemon USA?

**firefoxprime** · 07-05-2010, 12:01 PM

Hmm...I have to agree with you there.
I recently saw the Johto episode where Ash's tauros wins a battle at this Pokemon trading/swaping festival.

Team Rocket actually spoke like human beings who wanted to steal pokemon. They still had their personality in tact.
The show had personality. This more recent sinnoh eps stripped most of the personality and charm out of the characters.
Even Brock was still cool back then. So 4kids did a solid job, as well as their other franchise yugioh.

**Mesousa** · 07-05-2010, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by PC!

As for the PUSA dub, the protagonists are rarely funny. Team Rocket tries to be funny. Oh mercy, do they try. Pretty much every line they say is...weird, for lack of a better term. I think Meousa put it well when he said it was like they spoke jive. Take this clip for example. Listen to Team Rocket's dialogue. Notice how pretty much everything they say has to sound "witty." Sure, they had silly lines on occasion in the 4Kids dub, but nowadays they don't even talk like normal human beings anymore. And honestly, I don't think anything they say is really that funny.

The clip doesn't work, just to remind you.

One very excellent dub written episode by 4Kids is "The Bicker The Better", from the Advanced series. I remember laughing alot from the epide when I first saw it.

4Kids also pulls a Tiny Toons Adventures by giving jokes that the current teen audience would understand. Such examples are:

"To protect us from all that chafing and itching!"
"It might finally stop all of Jessie's... complaning!"

"It's following Pikachu like it's a streaker."

**PC!** · 07-05-2010, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Mesousa

The clip doesn't work, just to remind you.

Really? Works fine for me.

**Linkpre** · 07-05-2010, 01:02 PM

I personally enjoyed how 4kids wrote the show a little more. It's a big reason why I loved the Hoenn seasons so much because of the more dialouge based humor.

I can agree with the Team Rocket thing though, it seemed like they were alot easier for me to understand when 4Kids was still doing the show. It's not even nostalgia either, I've seen alot of johto episodes long after watchin' some of the newer ones and enjoyed them much more. Guess it just depends on what kind of humor you like.

**firefoxprime** · 07-05-2010, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by PC!

Really? Works fine for me.

Worked for me as well.
in the clip TR was just some cheap comic relief.
its obvious this anime has been milked to the point where its oldest
characters have lost their personality. TR,Brock,Ash, Joy, Jenny's, even
Pikachu. Its not even as special as it used to be.
I declare the pokemon anime dead. Feels like just another generic toyetic anime. Hopefully we'll see something fresh
and new in the upcoming series this fall.

**Daxdiv** · 07-05-2010, 01:04 PM

Must be region blocked for him. Since you got the clip from CN's YouTube page.

As for what dub had the better writing, I say they're kind of the same. 4Kids did take some liberties with the script and managed to rewrite a few things in almost every episode, but still had an overall tone. While TCPi/PUSA dub has a more accurate script to the Japanese version, outside of whenever Team Rocket opens their mouth.

**anime_guru** · 07-05-2010, 01:42 PM

I dislike many 4kids shows because it was ladled with bad puns that need to go die an asphyxiated death...and yet I popped in some episodes of pokemon from kanto (season 1)
and I found myself laughing at the puns. They were so camp but they were cool, and I thought to myself is it nostalgia that's driving this (pokemon did bring me back into anime) and my view. So I watched the newest episode of pokemon and I was bored.
I have to say beyond kanto, I really enjoyed the 4kids rendition of pokemon. It wasn't writing as much as it was acting. The 4kids team brought the characters alive and took it upon themselves to create a character that would suit them perfectly.
And it worked.
So very well.
PUSA is just let's dub. A lot still seems like line reading still occurs but most importantly, the characters are still mimicking the 4kids characters. So in that vein, it is hard to watch the PUSA; even if the writing is more true to the japanese interpretation. Say what you will about 4kids, but when they knock something out, they do it well. Pokemon they did well

**PC!** · 07-05-2010, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by anime_guru

I dislike many 4kids shows because it was ladled with bad puns that need to go die an asphyxiated death...and yet I popped in some episodes of pokemon from kanto (season 1)
and I found myself laughing at the puns. They were so camp but they were cool, and I thought to myself is it nostalgia that's driving this (pokemon did bring me back into anime) and my view. So I watched the newest episode of pokemon and I was bored.
I have to say beyond kanto, I really enjoyed the 4kids rendition of pokemon. It wasn't writing as much as it was acting. The 4kids team brought the characters alive and took it upon themselves to create a character that would suit them perfectly.
And it worked.
So very well.
PUSA is just let's dub. A lot still seems like line reading still occurs but most importantly, the characters are still mimicking the 4kids characters. So in that vein, it is hard to watch the PUSA; even if the writing is more true to the japanese interpretation. Say what you will about 4kids, but when they knock something out, they do it well. Pokemon they did well

A well-written post, but let's please keep this topic to dub writing as opposed to voice acting (which is a big, big topic all it's own).

**Yash** · 07-05-2010, 09:36 PM

They just need to get the guys who write the Paper Mario games to do Pokemon.

That would add a whole new level of entertainment.

**River26** · 07-05-2010, 09:57 PM

PUSA

They kept the japanese elements with the dub (ie black lines when people sulk, sweatdrop etc..). This to me is how it should be. There's nothing edit out.

James and Jessie say what they mean etc...

**Dogasu** · 07-05-2010, 10:16 PM

Why do people still call them "PUSA?" They haven't used that name in like three years.

Anyway, I'd say that TPCI is slightly worse. They don't tend to do massive rewrites like killing off Brock's mom or saying that it's been a year since they left Veridian City or all that scheiss they did in Chronicles. They do, however, turn Team Rocket into the most unlikeable characters in the show, something that 4Kids never really did.

I'm lazy, so I'll just copy / paste what I wrote about my site in regards to the Season 12 episode "The Treasure Is All Mine!"

The scene where James remembers that the treasure chest belongs to him is a perfect example of why I can't stand Team Rocket in this dub. I hate the way the writers "punch up" the dialogue by making every line rhyme, for no [expletive] reason. I'd make the obligatory Dr. Seuss reference here, but I honestly feel that the writing in his books, however simplistic it may be, is still worlds ahead of the dreck they come up with for this show. I honestly don't understand how the writers of this show are able to look at the Rocket-Dan in the Japanese version and conclude that having them say everything as if they have an allergy to talking like normal [expletive] human beings is the way to go.

What's even more maddening is the fact that they have James talk this way in the flashback as well. So what, the dub is making him talk like that retroactively now? Also, good job dubbers on making young James sound like a kid who went through puberty way too early.

Do they think the new lines are funny? Do little American kids (and not, say, jaded twenty-somethings) laugh at this stuff? Or do they roll their eyes and headdesk with the rest of us?

I used to think that the people who would go on message boards and talk about how annoying Team Rocket is were crazy. But really, what they're tired of is Team Rocket, not the Rocket-Dan. The Rocket-Dan is funny and endearing, while Team Rocket is a glaring example of what happens when adults try to be hip. I can see why so many fans preferred the way 4Kids handled the trio; they had their problems, sure, but at least I could sit through a Rocket-centered comedy episode and come out of it not wanting to shoot a kitten.

I'll put it this way; I look forward to Rocket-Dan -centered episodes but absolutely dread Team Rocket-centered episodes. That's a red flag that soemthing is terribly, terribly wrong.

**Light Lucario** · 07-05-2010, 11:26 PM

While I'm not sure about the dialogue for the heroes, I do agree that TPCI does a worse job for the dialogue for Team Rocket. It definitely sounds like the humor they're attempting to make is more forced compared to the dialogue from 4Kids. It also sounds like they're trying to have them speak with wit all of the time. There are various times when that also happens in the 4Kids dub, but I don't think that it happened as often as it does now. Sometimes, it isn't too bad in the TPCI, but other times, such as The Treasure Is All Mine episode that Dogasu mentioned, it can be really annoying.

Originally Posted by firefoxprime

its obvious this anime has been milked to the point where its oldest
characters have lost their personality. TR,Brock,Ash, Joy, Jenny's, even
Pikachu. Its not even as special as it used to be.
I declare the pokemon anime dead. Feels like just another generic toyetic anime. Hopefully we'll see something fresh
and new in the upcoming series this fall.

I can understand where you're coming from, especially since I've seen similar responses about the characters' personalities, and I respect that. However, I think it is a bit too harsh to declare that the series is dead and generic. Considering that it is still a successful series, I don't think that it could be qualified as dead. I don't mind if that is your opinion, but I just wouldn't label as a fact, especially when it just sounds like the show doesn't appeal to you anymore, instead of being dead and generic to everyone.

**firefoxprime** · 07-05-2010, 11:35 PM

Originally Posted by Light Lucario

While I'm not sure about the dialogue for the heroes, I do agree that TPCI does a worse job for the dialogue for Team Rocket. It definitely sounds like the humor they're attempting to make is more forced compared to the dialogue from 4Kids. It also sounds like they're trying to have them speak with wit all of the time. There are various times when that also happens in the 4Kids dub, but I don't think that it happened as often as it does now. Sometimes, it isn't too bad in the TPCI, but other times, such as The Treasure Is All Mine episode that Dogasu mentioned, it can be really annoying.

I can understand where you're coming from, especially since I've seen similar responses about the characters' personalities, and I respect that. However, I think it is a bit too harsh to declare that the series is dead and generic. Considering that it is still a successful series, I don't think that it could be qualified as dead. I don't mind if that is your opinion, but I just wouldn't label as a fact, especially when it just sounds like the show doesn't appeal to you anymore, instead of being dead and generic to everyone.

Trust me. There are still people who love the show. I also watch it....maybe every 30 eps when something epic happens.

And yes. Its definetly my opinion. I'm sorry if it came across as a false fact. But when I watched that random Johto episode....memories came
rushing back. The main characters in the show had more personality.
Team Rocket wasn't just used for comic relief. They actually had their own
ambitions and episodes that focused on their character development. I'll
hand one recent pokemon episode though. The ep where Jessie releases
her Dustox. I was truly amazed. It actually felt like a real full episode of a show that was littered with character developing nuggets.

**CyberCubed** · 07-06-2010, 01:12 AM

Its also the Japanese writers fault.

Brock is a TERRIBLE character in DP. Brock is the perfect example of how one of the shows best characters can turn into such an awful excuse of a character.

Remember the days when Brock had a personality? When Brock was a fun and entertaining character that we used to enjoy? And how now his Croagunk has more personality than he does?

Thank god the writers are finally axing Brock after DP ends, he should have never been in DP to begin with.

**firefoxprime** · 07-06-2010, 01:49 AM

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Its also the Japanese writers fault.

Brock is a TERRIBLE character in DP. Brock is the perfect example of how one of the shows best characters can turn into such an awful excuse of a character.

Remember the days when Brock had a personality? When Brock was a fun and entertaining character that we used to enjoy? And how now his Croagunk has more personality than he does?

Thank god the writers are finally axing Brock after DP ends, he should have never been in DP to begin with.

Hehehe...that is so true! :anime:
Really sad actually. I've heard some rumors, but I didn't know Brock was
actually getting the axe. Any links?

**Mesousa** · 07-06-2010, 09:27 AM

The most recent Johto episode that aired on Boomerang ("The Beauty and the Breeder") should give you yet another example that Team Rocket actually speak normally.

**Golfkid** · 07-06-2010, 09:59 AM

I agree with the fact that Team Rocket sounds awful right now. The 4Kids actors actually made them sound like REAL people. While I've thought they should have left a while ago, I agree with the other users that I could still sit through they're "part of a episode".

It's surprising, at least for me, how acting can really affect how much I watch a show. I had forgotten about the show, once it moved from the weekday block. Then, I got into the Advanced Series. Now, I hardly watch any episodes, unless a voice actor I like, is on.

I think the 4Kids was better for the most part. The 4Kids VA crew was way more human sounding and the themes were better. The other company (I guess it's not PUSA) doesn't have any edits (although, I never really noticed). I still think the 4Kids movies were slightly better.

**Dogasu** · 07-06-2010, 11:05 AM

Why are people going on about the voice actors in this thread? I thought this was to talk about the writing, not to dig up the tired old "4Kids VAs vs. TPCI VAs" thing again.

Originally Posted by Golfkid

While I've thought they should have left a while ago

I guarantee you it's because of the way they're written in the dub. If they were written more accurately, like every other character in the show, they wouldn't be getting on your nerves nearly as much.

They're actually charming and funny and endearing in the Japanese version, but none of that comes across in the dub because TPCI is too busy having them insult each other as much as possible.