How come Japan got Machine Robo and we were stuck with the Gobots?

[Chris Wood]

VHS vs. Betamax wasn't the only great 80s product war, there was also Transformers vs. Gobots. There wasn't a huge difference in the toys (although I believe most of the more sophisticated Gobots never made it to the U.S.) but it was night and day between the two promotional animated series. The Transformers got a solid, well animated (Japanese) cartoon while Gobots was saddled with a horrible, cheap Hanna Barbera production.

Yet in Japan Gobots was promoted by the Machine Robo TV series, which, though I have never really watched it, judging from a few clips was much better animated than the HB show and probably as well as Transformers. I don't know about the story, but it must have been better than the US show.

So what happened here? If they really wanted the Gobots toy line to succeed, why didn't they fight fire with fire and bring over Machine Robo?

[Beat]

There was still a reluctance in the 80's and early 90's with the fear that Americans wouldn't "get" anime, so everyone wanted to try adaptations instead, feeling they would be better suited for the marketplace.

[Gokou Ruri]

What he said.

But G1 was American, not Japanese.

[Beat]

What he said.

But G1 was American, not Japanese.

The toyline was Japanese, it was animated by Toei in Japan...it's at least 60% Japanese.

[Gokou Ruri]

The toyline was Japanese, it was animated by Toei in Japan...it's at least 60% Japanese.

The Simpsons is animated in Korea, but I wouldn't say it's Korean.

[Beat]

The Simpsons is animated in Korea, but I wouldn't say it's Korean.

The Simpsons wasn't based on Japanese character designs. Transformers was.

The proper breakdown of what now consists of modern day TF is...

30% American
60% Japanese
10% British.

[Mike JD Silva]

The toyline was Japanese, it was animated by Toei in Japan...it's at least 60% Japanese.

It may have been animated in Japan, but all the stories, names, history, events, etc, that happen within the show were done by Hasbro/Marvel.

It isn't until Headmasters that the Japanese are on their own totally with Transformers.

Spoiler:

And damn it all one of the first things they did is get rid of Prime again!

[Conan-san]

The Simpsons wasn't based on Japanese character designs. Transformers was.

The proper breakdown of what now consists of modern day TF is...

30% American
60% Japanese
10% British.

And I fell a sence of acomplishment that us 10% was able to infultrate both Spider Man and Doctor Who into procedings.

[Chris Wood]

There was still a reluctance in the 80's and early 90's with the fear that Americans wouldn't "get" anime, so everyone wanted to try adaptations instead, feeling they would be better suited for the marketplace.

But I believe Battle of the Planets was successful in the late 70s. Voltron premiered the same time as the Gobots, and Robotech followed a few months later.

It seems more likely Tonka thought they could make more money if they completely owned the rights to the property. Too bad they backed such a weak show.

[Jon T]

So what happened here? If they really wanted the Gobots toy line to succeed, why didn't they fight fire with fire and bring over Machine Robo?

The most likely explanation is that by the time Machine Robo could have been brought over to the West, the Gobots toyline was for all intents and purposes, practically worthless. It's important to note that the Gobots cartoon actually predates the Machine Robo cartoons by two years, thus probably explaining why the Gobots toyline failed so badly in the first place! Transformers was also essentially made in the U.S., which made it an easier sell than acquiring a 40+ episode anime series at a point when it wouldn't have been worth it to Tonka/Bandai.

Oddly enough, just as with Transformers, there was an attempt to bring the Gobots cartoon to Japan, but aside from one episode being dubbed and shown at a Tokyo Toy Fair, the attempt was abandoned and they simply originated their own series, with far, far superior animation.

As far as I know, the only country that ever got both the Gobots and Machine Robo cartoons on TV back in the day was France, a place which naturally enough has an established history of showing many dubbed animation shows, especially ones from Japan.

The toyline was Japanese, it was animated by Toei in Japan...it's at least 60% Japanese.

However, 99% of the creative people working on the series, such as the writers, character designers, storyboard artists, layout artists, etc. were from Marvel Productions in the U.S. Make no mistake, Transformers was a U.S.-produced show, but with Japanese robot designs (drawn up a couple of years before the show) and animation mostly by Toei. There's definitely more of a Japanese influence on Transformers than other shows animated in Japan, but I'd say the split is closer to 60-40, U.S.-Japan.

And I fell a sence of acomplishment that us 10% was able to infultrate both Spider Man and Doctor Who into procedings.

Erm... I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here! Spider-Man's appearance was in the U.S. Transformers comic first, and Doctor Who never appeared in any Transformers comic, U.S. or U.K. Popular comics supporting character Death's Head (so naturally not in any animated production) did however!

[Conan-san]

Sorry, I totaly threw myself off there in that train of thought. Minus $200 for me there, cookie.

[Jon T]

Sorry, I totaly threw myself off there in that train of thought. Minus $200 for me there, cookie.

No probs - I was just hoping that I hadn't missed any animated show where Spidey met the Transformers; it would have been memorable!

[Mike JD Silva]

But I believe Battle of the Planets was successful in the late 70s. Voltron premiered the same time as the Gobots, and Robotech followed a few months later.

It seems more likely Tonka thought they could make more money if they completely owned the rights to the property. Too bad they backed such a weak show.

And managed to kill Mighty Orbots in the process....

[Dark Fact]

But I believe Battle of the Planets was successful in the late 70s. Voltron premiered the same time as the Gobots, and Robotech followed a few months later.

You forgot Star Blazers.

But this is where the issue confuses me: if Star Blazers, Robotech, and Voltron were such enormous hits in the late 70's and early 80's, why didn't anime explode in popularity in the U.S. then? Why did Pokemon have to be the show to get the movement going?

From the art director of Blue seed? I thought they were trying to attract attention to this series, not away from it!

[Gokou Ruri]

But this is where the issue confuses me: if Star Blazers, Robotech, and Voltron were such enormous hits in the late 70's and early 80's, why didn't anime explode in popularity in the U.S. then? Why did Pokemon have to be the show to get the movement going?!

Did people even know they were anime? When you had similar American shows like G.I Joe, Jem, and Thundercats airing alongside them, they didn't seem out-of-place as DBZ and Pokemon did airing with Goof Troop and Bonkers (back when Pokemon aired on UPN) Speed Racer is also another one that I find a lot of older people don't know it was Japanese when it aired along with other old 60s shows.

That's my theory, anyway. Anime looks a lot different now than what it did back in the early 80s and earlier.

[Dark Fact]

Did people even know they were anime? When you had similar American shows like G.I Joe, Jem, and Thundercats airing alongside them, they didn't seem out-of-place as DBZ and Pokemon did airing with Goof Troop and Bonkers (back when Pokemon aired on UPN) Speed Racer is also another one that I find a lot of older people don't know it was Japanese when it aired along with other old 60s shows.

People would've noticed that the animation style was different from all the other shows they were watching back then. I think they still believed at the time that the shows were all american. Hell, I thought Samurai Pizza Cats was an american show with a different animation style when I was a kid. It wasn't until Sailor Moon that I realized that the show had more of a japanese look and the availability of the Internet at the time allowed me to see that the show was made in japan as were a ton of other shows that were covered up in script and dialogue to look like they were american made. Anime fans back then were still an underground movment and had no influential power to the companies into how the shows should've been released. That massive amount of ignorance made it easy for companies such as Harmony Gold and Saban entertainment to get away with what they did without fear of backlash. Now that people are more aware of anime's existence and its origins, companies like that can't get away without being raked over the coals by rabid fans. The tables have turned!

[Hordesman]

However, 99% of the creative people working on the series, such as the writers, character designers, storyboard artists, layout artists, etc. were from Marvel Productions in the U.S. Make no mistake, Transformers was a U.S.-produced show, but with Japanese robot designs (drawn up a couple of years before the show) and animation mostly by Toei. There's definitely more of a Japanese influence on Transformers than other shows animated in Japan, but I'd say the split is closer to 60-40, U.S.-Japan.

It comes down to skill levels and how much control is exercised on both ends of production. I mean, the animators on Avatar do their own timing rather than follow x-sheets. I'd say that divides the country involved more than regular farmed out animation.

But where's that leave Rudolph? I mean, equating anything farmed out to Japan as some form of anime eventually leads to Rankin-Bass.

[Beat]

And managed to kill Mighty Orbots in the process....

Eh, Orbots looked pretty, but let's face it, it was GodMars with robots from the Hanna-Barbera mold.

[Jon T]

It comes down to skill levels and how much control is exercised on both ends of production. I mean, the animators on Avatar do their own timing rather than follow x-sheets. I'd say that divides the country involved more than regular farmed out animation.

But where's that leave Rudolph? I mean, equating anything farmed out to Japan as some form of anime eventually leads to Rankin-Bass.

I know exactly what you mean. It's strange how Transformers of all shows has sometimes become the hardest to define in the "is it really anime?" argument. Notably, there are never any claims that G.I. Joe counts as anime even though it was from exactly the same people and production companies, and Toei even animated every episode (unlike TF!).

I agree that my estimate was probably a little too giving on the Japanese side of things, but there were nevertheless certain concerns from Japan that did dictate things creatively on the U.S. end, such as no Bandai-designed characters appearing in the show (with one exception - who was redesigned to circumvent Takara's concerns).

[Chris Wood]

The most likely explanation is that by the time Machine Robo could have been brought over to the West, the Gobots toyline was for all intents and purposes, practically worthless.

On the other hand, they could have aired Machine Robo right when Transformers stopped production in 1987 and picked up all those robot fans desperate for new programming.

As far as I know, the only country that ever got both the Gobots and Machine Robo cartoons on TV back in the day was France, a place which naturally enough has an established history of showing many dubbed animation shows, especially ones from Japan.

Italy and The Philippines also seem to have gotten a lot of anime shows that never reached the US. Lucky devils.

But this is where the issue confuses me: if Star Blazers, Robotech, and Voltron were such enormous hits in the late 70's and early 80's, why didn't anime explode in popularity in the U.S. then? Why did Pokemon have to be the show to get the movement going?

I think you may have answered your question for yourself. A key difference is merchandise, which Pokemon had tons of. At the time that Star Blazers and Battle of Planets were airing in the late 70s licensed toys were only just starting to really become blockbuster business (thanks to Star Wars). Furthermore legislation at the time made it difficult to link cartoons too closely with toys. Anyway, those shows never had much of a merchandise presence in the U.S.

Robotech did have a reasonably large toyline, but it was very poorly designed and seemed to flop.

But I don't think any of those shows had as broad an audience as Pokemon.