Talkback for Elfen Lied reviews

[dementia326]

I apologize that my first post on a forum has to be an angry one, but my introduction to Toonzone was an angry one. After reading the rules for the forum, I believe I do not cross any lines by posting this. Ahem:

While thumbing through various fansites and reviews of Elfen Lied, I found what the Toonzone crew had to say about it. I refer to the distasteful reviews by Karl Olsen and "Knux Five," (do a search, see for yourself.)

My immediate reaction was blind and furious anger, followed shortly by a need to know why. From the reviews, I gathered that these guys had not watched more than 3 or 4 episodes of the series. Kinda like watching the opening credits of an action movie and then storming out of the theatre saying, "There was no action."

I understand that its not a show for everyone, as it can be bloody and depressing at times, but good lord, man! The Toonzone gang just complains about its "unoriginality."

Elfen Lied is one of the most engenious and beautifully pieced togethor shows I have ever seen. It offers a brilliant commentary on human nature, asking the very question, "What does it mean to be human?" while maintaining an incredible character driven plot.

Toonzone says: "I don't understand it, therefore it is bad."

I don't think it's too much to ask that you guys stop and check yourselves, and admit that it's just over your head.

[FlyByNite77]

Umm I just looked at review knox did on it and he closes with

Despite it's lack of invention, I'll admit that I would probably watch future volumes, and that I would probably enjoy them. The show isn't supposed to be silly, but it is. If you don't mind laughing at a show that isn't nearly as good as it thinks it is—and if you're not the least bit squeamish—you might think about giving it a shot.


What's wrong with that? We all have opinions and not everyone is going to love something the same way you might. I personally have Elfen Lied as one of my favorite animes I've watched in the past year. I don't think it's silly, I think the humor in it really offsets some of the darker moments.

[Chad Bonin]

Also, remember that it was a review of the first DVD, not of the entire show.

AND... you can automatically make talkbacks for news and reviews by clicking the "Discuss" link in the article.

[dementia326]

I tried the link on the article. I think it's broken... kept telling me my account wasn't active.

[Yal]

Elfen Lied wouldn't be half the show it is without the hoary cliches. Sure, it's a silly harem comedy smashed into an unhinged gorefest psychodrama, but that's the whole point. Every character is similarly constructed, balanced on a razor's edge.

It may just be my soft spot for damaged characters, souls badly in need a good hug (this goes all the way back to Eeyore as a kid), but this is one of my current favorites.

[BrendaBat]

Origionally posted by dementia326
I don't think it's too much to ask that you guys stop and check yourselves, and admit that it's just over your head.

Yeah. The fact that Karl Olsen and Knux Five criticised Elfin Lied proves that they're just too stupid to "get it"

I loved the Elfin Lied reviews. The first one was one of the funniest things I've ever read! I've never seen Elfin Lied, but I have a pretty low opinion of stupid harem-robot shows and annoying, over-used anime clichés in general. So I got a kick out of reading Karl Olsen's "tired cliché checklist".

Seriously, if you can step back and forget your fandom for a second, you might see the humor in the review as well.

[Karl Olson]

No, I got it. It's a harem anime tacked on to a z-grade sci-fi horror anime, and it's paced poorly. You don't blow 3 episodes of a 13-episode series on just basic setup, atleast not in the fashion that Elfen Lied did. I doubt Lynn Okamoto's original manga is paced like that. The gore is boring (artsy gore like Hellsing is a lot more creative than zomg blood spray,) the nudity is basically tacked on most of the time (as it is in a lot of harem shows,) and in general, it reads like an excuse to be violent and sexual in the 3 episodes that ADV sent me. It lacks the psychelogical suspense and intensity of a real good horror anime like Perfect Blue. Elfen Lied's just "hey violence" and "hey boobs" tacked together with a little bit of half-hearted angst. Maybe I'd take a different view if I saw the whole thing, but a series that short should grab the viewer by the time it's a quarter of the way through the show. I mean, a show can be uber-violent, sexual and cryptic and sell itself in an episode (Texhnolyze does that IMO,) but only if it's done very, very well does it work. Otherwise, you'll drown out any style or story you had under generic gore and sex. It's a poorly told story that is largely uncreative in it's elements and setup, atleast if you've been watching anime extensively for longer than the last two years.

The opening is really nice though. Vastly better than the show itself.

[dementia326]

If you form your opinions on a series too fast, FLCL looks like a pointless plotless cartoon with nothing more to offer than interesting artwork.

Elfen Lied is unique *because* most of the characters are cliche. It takes its time to try and set up an ordinary environment for an extraordinary character driven plot to take place. That's the case if all you're looking at is the general story it offers.

Admitedly, I didn't like the first few episodes as much because it takes time to set up personalities for (arguably cliche) side characters that I don't really care about. But, without those characters to try and offer a focal point of normality, the series would lose it's meaning.

Later episodes pose truly interesting and important philisophical questions regarding humanity. That is what I enjoyed about the show.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not trying to tell Karl and Knux to "stfu," I'm trying to tell everyone that read (or wrote) those reviews that there's a lot more to the show than they saw, or decided to give much thought to.

P.S. BrendaBat:

The point was that the show isn't a "stupid harem robot show" and in fact isn't oozing with "overused anime cliches." The reason I said what you quoted was because the reviews were terrible and bent the truth. You can make anything look bad if you try hard enough.

[Classic Speedy]

I didn't really like Elfen Lied either. Its attempts to shock the audience fell flat on their face because they show so much of the violence that it desensetizes you, ruining any kind of suspense that would be had otherwise. After about the 50th body is decapitated with unimaginative blood-spillage and spray, you start to roll your eyes.

Seriously, did this show ever hear of the age-old philosophy in that what you DON'T see can often be more terrifying? That was thrown out the window even further when they revealed the telekinetic arms in episode 4.

And the attempts at comedy also fell flat on their face, because the preceeding events were usually someone getting dismembered. It's like it tries to be two shows in one: Girls Bravo and Gantz.

[Lord Dalek]

This show is just gore for gore's sake. That's my two cents.

[Timmay]

Elfen Lied is unique *because* most of the characters are cliche.

That's like saying a light is both on and off at the same time.

A good show doesn't have to be unique or stand out by the way, but Knux is right by calling it a show full of cliches.

[Mr. Pedro]

I find Elfen Lied entertaining by virtue of the over the top blood and gore can be unintentionally hilarious at times. I'll simply chalk it up to being a guiltly pleasure of mine.

And I loved the splash for Olson's EL review.

[dementia326]

All anyone has to say about it is "its unoriginal" or "it's too violent," for christs sake, if you can't get past that then maybe you're better off applying your minds to unravelling the mysterious inner meanings of Digimon.

Also, Timmay, reading the whole post usually helps when it's time to hit the reply button:

" But, without those characters to try and offer a focal point of normality, the series would lose it's meaning."

I've watched a lot of anime in my day, and while I do enjoy Bleach or Naruto for a good beatdown, I watch shows like Elfen Lied and FLCL because they actually make me *think.* Shows like that are rare because people never seem to understand them, and that really makes me sad. If it's too much to ask you to think about a show for a minute, then don't even review it, and don't pretend that you understand it. It honestly just makes you look like a fool.

[Karl Olson]

If you form your opinions on a series too fast, FLCL looks like a pointless plotless cartoon with nothing more to offer than interesting artwork.

No, FLCL launches into depth from the start. It's weird and hyperkinetic, but it's probably one of the best instances of ontogenetic metaphor ever anime, and it sets that up from episode 1. It does an excellent of using the visuals and dialogue to weave all sorts of little hints. When I watched the first episode FLCL, I knew it had something emotionally and philosophically intense to offer. Too much visual metaphor in play not to be.

Elfen Lied is unique *because* most of the characters are cliche.

Error. This does not compute. I can think of a million anime with cliche characters, wait, cliche means typical and played out. Use more exacting language please.

It takes its time to try and set up an ordinary environment for an extraordinary character driven plot to take place. That's the case if all you're looking at is the general story it offers.

No, it's a cliche environment. It's borrowed through and through from other works. In fact, an authetically ordinary enviroment is almost never seen in anime. It's almost always idealized. However, atleast some people manage do to something unique and occiaisionally even broach the realistic. Elfen Lied does neither. Real kids don't end up with numerous girls with issues surrounding him. They don't get to live a house for the cost of cleaning it. Don't try and all call it ordinary. It's fantasy from square one, and it's cribbed fantasy at that. Some people can play to their advantage; it was in the episodes I saw of Elfen Lied.

Admitedly, I didn't like the first few episodes as much because it takes time to set up personalities for (arguably cliche) side characters that I don't really care about. But, without those characters to try and offer a focal point of normality, the series would lose it's meaning.

Later episodes pose truly interesting and important philisophical questions regarding humanity. That is what I enjoyed about the show.

Yeah, other anime manage to pull that off from square one (FLCL for one if you get over the intense visual style and focus on those what visuals are saying at points.) Good works IMHO don't wait to get into the weight. They don't need to bring the pace to a halt to illuminate the setup - it happens in step with everything else. You can have normality with out being boring or hackneyed or poorly paced.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not trying to tell Karl and Knux to "stfu," I'm trying to tell everyone that read (or wrote) those reviews that there's a lot more to the show than they saw, or decided to give much thought to.

Look, I do not have money to buy every show I get a screener for. It's a miracle Lied got review at all because it used to be we didn't get screeners out of the Anime companies at TZ. However, I'm not going to try follow through and watch the rest of show on my pocket book unless it wows me, and I'm surely not going to pirate it at this point. I make do with what I'm given most of the time, and when it comes to ADV, that is almost always only part of the product - the only time we get the whole show is when it's a one disc movie or OVA, or when one of us goes out and buys the rest - like did with Eva. ADV gave me 3 episodes of Elfen Lied - 3 episodes you yourself admit are a stumbling block in the series. Well, ADV never gave me any more than that, so as far as an evaluation of those 3 episodes, which is all I really know about the show, it's a failure.

Besides, the old "this show gets great after 23985 episodes" is garbage. A really good series, not an ok or passable series, should be interesting from the start. That doesn't mean it has to be fast paced - Monster isn't, Planetes isn't, Haibane isn't, Koi Kaze isn't - but it's got to actually draw the viewer in some how from the start. It can't just mess around for 1/4-3/4 of the episodes then punch in with something worth while. That's poor writing and poor direction.

The point was that the show isn't a "stupid harem robot show" and in fact isn't oozing with "overused anime cliches." The reason I said what you quoted was because the reviews were terrible and bent the truth. You can make anything look bad if you try hard enough.

Bent the truth as per your perspective. You're narrow-minded yourself if you think there is any one, single truth when it comes to entertainment. It's not a science, it's an artform. You can't definitively raise anyone work over the other after a certain point, particularly on the more experimental end of things, which, for better or worse, is where Elfen Lied sits. It's an experiment; however, it's an experiment in entertainment which means failure or success depends on the view point of the average viewer, not against any solid universal standard. By my personal standards, it doesn't do anything interesting or compelling in the 3 episodes ADV gave me. I can't afford to buy a show I don't know that I will like (atleast not until it's boxsetted and discounted, and even then, I'm really leary,) and I really clearly am not sure whether I'll like Elfen Lied. So yeah, my perspective is based on a fraction of a show. Too bad. Blame ADV for not following through with extra discs beyond the screener I got and the copy of volume 1 Knux got. OTOH, it's based on a fraction of the series that separates great series from mediocre ones, atleast in my opinion. Some people don't mind sitting through a bunch of awkwardly directed setup episodes to get the heart of the manner. I prefer shows that just nail it from day one. Elfen Lied, by your own admission, doesn't hit it right off the bat, and that's my point really. It doesn't work well in it's start up. Good show can give you that grounding with out being a drag to watch.

[Yal]

They only gave you three episodes? There's four on the first disc, and epsiode four is probably the strongest of the set.

In any event, I never felt the series had pacing problems, I was hooked from the secretary in the opening sequence. They laid on that cute, clumsy girl stereotype so thick, I was sure I was looking at the female lead...

[dementia326]

Thank god for you, Yal. That instance in the first episode should demonstrate (for people that only watched a few episodes) what the series intends to do with any cliches it has.

[Conekiller]

Hey, dude, I get that you like the series, but you gotta settle down a bit, it's no biggie.

People have their tastes, some people like gratuitous violence and nudity, others don't.

[Lachesis]

Elfen Lied? Worst parts of Kite, Chobits, and the loli-hentai-of-the-month in a blender. What is it with these pervs and cat-ears?

[Karl Olson]

They only gave you three episodes? There's four on the first disc, and epsiode four is probably the strongest of the set.

Knux got the first disc, I got the screener disc that only members of the press get their hands on (I'll take a picture of it if you want - it's pretty cool looking.) It's the same thing that ADV brought with them to con to screen pre-release of Elfen Lied at cons. That only has the first 3 episodes, dub only. I did, however, get an x-ray of a diclonius skull with it and the usual PR sheet. That was pretty cool.

In any event, I never felt the series had pacing problems, I was hooked from the secretary in the opening sequence. They laid on that cute, clumsy girl stereotype so thick, I was sure I was looking at the female lead...

See, I immediately thought "the horror movie cliche is this girl will bite it." I just didn't think it'd be so soon and so brutal. It's always the bubble heads and jerks who bite it first. Now that I think about it, they usually get the more gruesome deaths too. Should seen that neck snap coming.

[Go-chin]

I think the topic creator needs to learn about something called an "opinion".

Even if they never watched to where it got good, don't criticize them and say they're dumbasses for not trying to look deeper into the show.