Western cartoons: Better background art than anime?

[Waylaid]

From the Animation Insider review of Megas:

Even though this is anime inspired, it doesn't borrow the sometimes off-the-wall color scale. The background artwork is hardly noticeable though in Megas XLR. When it was noted by show creators that this was a hybrid of Japanese and American animation, apparently the west won out when it came to background art. Although not poor (far from it), the scenic artwork that I love so dearly is in fact far too infrequent. As dirty as the air of Jersey is, as vast as the universe is, as suburban as America has become, and as large as the inside of spaceships are, I want to see more of them. The short-handedness of backgrounds kid of irks me, but still, what is there, is quite good. There's enough scenic artwork to get the show through and through, but I think that having less than others gives it a more constricted and localized ambience. This is a strong and apparently lasting characteristic of American animation, lots of close-ups, waist and higher (portrait) shots, facial impassiveness, etc. Although good in a unique way these aspects of animation can contradict one another from time to time.

Megas review aside, how true is it that American cartoons are better in the said aspects than anime, according to the quote given?

Not wanting a "Anime good! Cartoon bad" debate. Just want a good discussion regarding this issue.

[JDNobodi]

I don't think it a matter of east or west but how much money was invested into a show.

[Karl Olson]

That article's point on background was US art these days often short changes the background art. Anime, as noted in the commentary to the more movement driven Dead Leaves interestingly enough, usually has beautiful and complex background art that is at times more beautiful than character animation (actually, in anything non theatrical, usually the backgrounds are more detailed than the character movement in anime. In low budget anime like Tsukihime, the background are insanely great at points, while the character animation outside of the fight scenes is almost non-existant.)

Considering that Megas claims to be anime inspired, it's art is distinctly American. If it were truely an anime, you'd probably know exactly which part of Jersey was getting thrashed in the show because they'd have sent their art team there to take as many references photos as they could get (as was done for Gunsmith Cats.) Megas, though not particularly bad with it's backgrounds, doesn't have the spit and polish (or in the case of replicating suburban Jersey, grime and sludge) of an anime in a comparable setting (like Gunsmith Cats, which was set in Chicago and looked so much you could tell with a doubt where it was occuring if you were familar with Chicago.)

Personally I'd say in general, the usual TV anime has better background art than the usual US TV animation (it's not a different in amount of budget, so much as difference on where the budget is spent, thought the usual US TV animation costs 2-4 times what the usual anime costs.) On the flipside though, the usual US TV animation has better character movement and expression than the usual TV anime (except in fight animation, where anime wins hands down.)

[lostrune]

I was just recently discussing this with some animators in another animation board....

Considering that Megas claims to be anime inspired, it's art is distinctly American. If it were truely an anime, you'd probably know exactly which part of Jersey was getting thrashed in the show because they'd have sent their art team there to take as many references photos as they could get (as was done for Gunsmith Cats.)

I pretty much agree with the rest of what you said, so I'll just focus on this one.

We were talking about how anime (for this purpose, we're mostly refering to TV shows) don't usually have a lot of "movement" aka barely animated. For its part, I put up a philosophical difference between American and Japanese animation: anime to the Japanese is about film-making first, animation second (i.e. animation is a means to create a good film, not the end in and of itself.)

I also cited an observation that anime puts more effort into the backgrounds, while that's a low priority in American animaton. I asked them, when was the last time they were sent (especially overseas where they're not familiar with a scenery) to do some scouting - of course, no US sponsor would bother paying for that.

As an example, the town in which the first episode of Tsukuyomi - Moon Phase is set is Rothenberg, Germany. Look at the image of the clocktower at 3:32 (running time) with this Rothenberg photo:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/...43980978NweJgK

Coincidentally, Rothenberg is also the model for the town in which Saga and Sugar live in Tiny Snow Fairy Sugar, with the third DVD having a nice travelogue about the visit the staff made there in preparation for animating the series. Not bad for a small town.

[Beat]

You have to compare on a show by show basis. From what I've seen, it wouldn't be fair otherwise.

[Invader_Spooch]

On the flipside though, the usual US TV animation has better character movement and expression than the usual TV anime (except in fight animation, where anime wins hands down.)

In total agreeance here. Though I think Teen Titans' action scenes deserve honorable mention, due to their amazingness.

[Weatherman]

I would disagree slightly on the issue of the backgrounds in Megas XLR. While they are pretty nondescript, Jersey really is liek that for the most part. Even in Atlantic city they only thing thatreally sticks out is the logos on the buildings, and I'm guessing the show's creators didn't feel liek going through the hassle of trying to get clearence for all of those. Also, Futurama features some absolutely amazing background work, but that shwo did have an insanely high budget.

Generally though, you're right, Japanese animation has much higher quality background work the American shows. For whatever reason American aniamtors have put a much higher priority of making sure the character animation is as smooth and fluid as possible without using alot of long pans and such.

Also, isn't Gunsmith Cats a bit of an off comparison seeing as it was a 2(3?) episode OVA as opposed to an ongoing series. Andother also, Rothernberg Germany is an exceptionalyl cool place. One of the last palces on earth that you can see buildings from the middle-ages without a bunch of cars running around the area.

[Jave]

I think it depends mostly on the talent of the background artist and the money spent on the show, independent if it's American or Japanese.

Personally, my favorite background artist is John Didrik Johnsen

[Killtacular]

I don't know, I don't think either side of the globe has superior background art. They both follow some pretty lame stereotypes. If you've seen a city in one American cartoon, you've seen the same city in another. Likewise, the average anime has the same problem with cities that all look interchangable. Noone tries to really flesh out the place characters live in, although Superman: TAS tried with Metropolis... Metropolis actually has personality to its environment. Also The Batman's version of Gotham is very unique (I wish they'd stick to the green skies).

Yes there are HIGH budget anime with nice realistic backgrounds but it seems like the only time you see that is when the anime is:

a) set in a different time period
b) set in a different country
c) cyberpunk

I've seen some anime that simply took photographs and ran them through Photoshop to look like art. I guess, though, that since anime has a really strict schedule to produce with no breaks, it's understandable.

[Ben]

They both follow some pretty lame stereotypes. If you've seen a city in one American cartoon, you've seen the same city in another. Likewise, the average anime has the same problem with cities that all look interchangable.

The thing is, though, almost all cities in real life are interchangeable. Even more so in Japan than here. So you can't really blame the staff on, say, KoiKaze if the buildings all look the same as any other anime even though they're very detailed. It's because those buildings, much of the time, do all look exactly the same.

I've seen some anime that simply took photographs and ran them through Photoshop to look like art. I guess, though, that since anime has a really strict schedule to produce with no breaks, it's understandable.

If you want to see an incredibly amateurish Photoshop anime, watch Kino's Journey. It's like they let loose a fourteen year-old with his first computer on that show. The effects just looked ridiculous. Come to think of it, the character animation looked like it was done by a fourteen year-old too. And the designs, and some of the stories... Hmm...

[Artimus Gigan]

it varies from shiow to show

Inu-yasha's backrounds for example are pretty bleak and undetailed

However a show like Gargoyles has the entire city lit up and to scale with everything

[Invader_Spooch]

If you want to see an incredibly amateurish Photoshop anime, watch Kino's Journey. It's like they let loose a fourteen year-old with his first computer on that show. The effects just looked ridiculous. Come to think of it, the character animation looked like it was done by a fourteen year-old too. And the designs, and some of the stories... Hmm...

You couldn't be more off.

I don't even know where to begin on how incorrect this statement is.

[livingfruitvirus]

The thing is, though, almost all cities in real life are interchangeable. Even more so in Japan than here. So you can't really blame the staff on, say, KoiKaze if the buildings all look the same as any other anime even though they're very detailed. It's because those buildings, much of the time, do all look exactly the same.

I'm not understanding. Cities have their own unique features. They all have big tall office buildings yes. But some of them have ports. Some have rivers that run through them and are known for having numerous bridges (Jacksonville), some have beaches and waterways (Miami, Tampa), many are landlocked, and so on. Cities have plenty of unique features to them and if some background artists (or whoever designs the city environment) could try to implement them to make them more unique and less interchangable instead of just spraying a building hose over the city, they'd look a lot better in animation.

[Hordesman]

I remember watching "Invasion America" with my cousin from D.C. some years back. The lead's running through the city, passing all the known monuments. My cousin observed that if someone actually ran past everything like that, it would've taken at least an hour. And that was a U.S. produced show.

I love the backgrounds from "Electric Hero Porygon", the banned epilepsy-causing Poke-ep. It wasn't that generic forest scenery they use all the time. Detail is nice, but good design can attract attention without spending as much time or money. And in anime, I think character counts most of all. I mean, character merchandise and recordings are a much bigger deal in Japan.

[Weatherman]

I don't know, I don't think either side of the globe has superior background art. They both follow some pretty lame stereotypes. If you've seen a city in one American cartoon, you've seen the same city in another. Likewise, the average anime has the same problem with cities that all look interchangable. Noone tries to really flesh out the place characters live in, although Superman: TAS tried with Metropolis... Metropolis actually has personality to its environment. Also The Batman's version of Gotham is very unique (I wish they'd stick to the green skies).

Yes there are HIGH budget anime with nice realistic backgrounds but it seems like the only time you see that is when the anime is:

a) set in a different time period
b) set in a different country
c) cyberpunk

I've seen some anime that simply took photographs and ran them through Photoshop to look like art. I guess, though, that since anime has a really strict schedule to produce with no breaks, it's understandable.

I doesn't help that most show are either set in Tokyo or in a fairly faceless "Insert name here" City that all seem to have the same river running through them and the same city park full of benches on a bluff. Though, from what I've heard, alot of japan really does look kinda faceless.

Saikano had some really nice, distinctive background work since it actually names a city and seem to work with the locations. I suppsoe it really does depend om what the time schedule allows them to do.

[Ben]

You couldn't be more off.

I don't even know where to begin on how incorrect this statement is.

You want to offer some kind of argument instead of just saying I'm wrong? Because all I'm seeing at the end of those episodes are silly swirley Photoshop filters over text.

If it's the plot comment you're objecting to, it can depend on taste, but the truth is all those plots were already done by Twilight Zone or some other old sf anthology. They just struck me as, in this day and age, kind of silly. I mean, the last man in the country where they've exectuted everyone else? That's just an unrealistic character in an unrealistic setting. I can't empathize with that. And if the best you can do as far as flashbacks go is to loop the same footage of a bunch of black person silhouettes raising their hands over and over, that's not going to make the story any more human. The railroad episode was pretty good, but that's because the characters were interesting. So was the brain-surgery-on-eleven-year-olds episode. The library one was great. But for each interesting episode there was a tired, cliched, deathly dull one. A family of robots who kills themselves. A country of stupid religious people. How many times has this been done? I would put that in spoiler tags but really every plot "twist" in those episodes is so blithering obvious there's hardly a point.

And that's really the problem I had-- if the eps moved along at a faster clip the stories might actually be interesting. If they tightened up the show a lot, I'm talking cut the time in half, then we might be getting somewhere. In fact then a lot of these stories might not be so predictable (though I make no promises). I have this problem with a lot of otherwise perfectly good anime: they feel the need to fill 13 episodes when the plot would be better served by five or six. It happened with KoiKaze, it happened with Kino, even Haibane could've used a little snipping.

I know, they're supposedly "charming" and "gently paced," but there's a difference between being gentle or atmospheric and being boring. GitS: Innocence? Atmospheric. Kaidomaru? Boring. NieA_7? Gentle. Kino's Journey? BORING.

[Weatherman]

You want to offer some kind of argument instead of just saying I'm wrong? Because all I'm seeing at the end of those episodes are silly swirley Photoshop filters over text.

If it's the plot comment you're objecting to, it can depend on taste, but the truth is all those plots were already done by Twilight Zone or some other old sf anthology. They just struck me as, in this day and age, kind of silly. I mean, the last man in the country where they've exectuted everyone else? That's just an unrealistic character in an unrealistic setting. I can't empathize with that. And if the best you can do as far as flashbacks go is to loop the same footage of a bunch of black person silhouettes raising their hands over and over, that's not going to make the story any more human. The railroad episode was pretty good, but that's because the characters were interesting. So was the brain-surgery-on-eleven-year-olds episode. The library one was great. But for each interesting episode there was a tired, cliched, deathly dull one. A family of robots who kills themselves. A country of stupid religious people. How many times has this been done? I would put that in spoiler tags but really every plot "twist" in those episodes is so blithering obvious there's hardly a point.

And that's really the problem I had-- if the eps moved along at a faster clip the stories might actually be interesting. If they tightened up the show a lot, I'm talking cut the time in half, then we might be getting somewhere. In fact then a lot of these stories might not be so predictable (though I make no promises). I have this problem with a lot of otherwise perfectly good anime: they feel the need to fill 13 episodes when the plot would be better served by five or six. It happened with KoiKaze, it happened with Kino, even Haibane could've used a little snipping.

I know, they're supposedly "charming" and "gently paced," but there's a difference between being gentle or atmospheric and being boring. GitS: Innocence? Atmospheric. Kaidomaru? Boring. NieA_7? Gentle. Kino's Journey? BORING.

I suppose it is a matter of personal taste as I loved the slow, almost lilting pace of Kino's journey. To me, it brought home the length of her travels.

And I thought the show has some awesome background work. And if they used Photoshop to enhance some of the effects, so be it. I thought it stil looked great.

[Karl Olson]

I doesn't help that most show are either set in Tokyo or in a fairly faceless "Insert name here" City that all seem to have the same river running through them and the same city park full of benches on a bluff. Though, from what I've heard, alot of japan really does look kinda faceless.

It is. It's rare anime that plays Tokyo's facelessness it's advantage (KoiKaze and Black Heaven immediately spring to mind, as they use their setting to accentuate the emotion of the work.) In sense, it makes for some generic art, but even low-to-mid-budget works set in Tokyo/Generic Japanese Cities often have nice backgrounds these days (like Tsukihime, Angelic Layer, Arjuna.)

Saikano had some really nice, distinctive background work since it actually names a city and seem to work with the locations. I suppsoe it really does depend om what the time schedule allows them to do.

In the case of stuff like Saikano and Abenobashi, because they aren't set in Tokyo, some extra elbow grease is being put into getting the details down, especially since those works are very much centered around the cities they are set in. Oddly enough, setting something in Osaka or Sapporo might as well be the same as setting it in Chicago or Seattle. Atleast far as attention to detail is concerned.

[Ben]

And I thought the show has some awesome background work. And if they used Photoshop to enhance some of the effects, so be it. I thought it stil looked great.

I don't mean the backgrounds! They were quite lovely actually. But the scrappy text at the end of every episode broke the atmosphere for me entirely.