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  1. #81
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    To be honest, some of the earlier comments made me sad.

    Most of the One Piece arcs begin slow, so that you can be introduced to the characters, and new concepts. Oda is a master of always bringing together various plots towards the middle and end of an arc.

    But I guess people would rather have non-stop fighting.

    Except when Bleach did that, people complained. There is no making some people happy.

    And if you don't like the weekly pacing.....STREAM THE SHOW ON HULU, OR BUY THE DVDS. Gah.
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  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gold Guy View Post
    And if you don't like the weekly pacing.....STREAM THE SHOW ON HULU, OR BUY THE DVDS. Gah.
    Better than that, read the manga.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobodyman View Post
    Better than that, read the manga.
    Whoops. :P That too; go to your local library.
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  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gold Guy View Post
    Whoops. :P That too; go to your local library.
    Yeah, sure, the "library".*

    *Seriously though, I do recommend and promote reading the official English release.
    Last edited by Nobodyman; 11-20-2013 at 02:42 PM.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gold Guy View Post
    To be honest, some of the earlier comments made me sad.

    Most of the One Piece arcs begin slow, so that you can be introduced to the characters, and new concepts. Oda is a master of always bringing together various plots towards the middle and end of an arc.

    But I guess people would rather have non-stop fighting.

    Except when Bleach did that, people complained. There is no making some people happy.

    And if you don't like the weekly pacing.....STREAM THE SHOW ON HULU, OR BUY THE DVDS. Gah.
    I don't want it to be non-stop fighting. One of the great things about One Piece is are the character interactions and all the world building. Heck fight scenes are fun, but that can be drawn out too long as well.
    When it comes down to it, if anyone hates the pacing, they should just read the manga.


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  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dudley View Post
    I don't want it to be non-stop fighting. One of the great things about One Piece is are the character interactions and all the world building. Heck fight scenes are fun, but that can be drawn out too long as well.
    When it comes down to it, if anyone hates the pacing, they should just read the manga.
    I agree. Oda is probably the best Shonen Jump author when it comes to world-building, aside from maybe Kishimoto.
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  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobodyman View Post
    Believe it or not, Oda (the author of One Piece) has given the animators plenty of opportunities to do creative and fun things with One Piece filler. Like, he does little cover stories for each chapter, which are canon within the manga. Toei actually adapted the first two, but have long since stopped doing them (granted, they'd only be good for about one or two episodes of material). He also does it more subtle ways, like glancing over battles with tertiary characters that, while not essential, would still be pretty fun to watch. But instead, Toei generally just pads the episodes with recaps, lingering stare downs, and tedious fart jokes (don't worry, we won't see the likes of such terrible pacing for a while) Between One Piece and DBZ, they really are just an awful animation studio. As much as I hate to admit it, and while they're not exactly great either, Studio Pierrot really has handled Naruto and Bleach better than Toei has handled One Piece.
    Well not sure if i'd agree on naruto seeing as naruto's 90 episodes of filler before shippuden is one of the reasons why fillers became so despised... But bleach i would agree with. In terms of filler Studio Perriot did a a pretty good job. Heck the filler arcs were actually better than the canon arcs; they found ways to insert the filler characters into the canon arcs to make the filler arcs feel more natural; and even in the canon material, they often added a lot of material that allow fights to keep up their pace or added more story. I mean for instance, i recalled they used filler to expand on Halibel's back story.

    Really Perriot's only problem is that they were dragged down by the material itself. First off, Kubo did not seem to plan out his story well; I mean from when ichigo enters HM, till the defeat of Aizen we have one coninious flowing story; that is all one MASSIVE saga. When the anime team started the arrancar arc, the manga was well ahead of them, btu the anime team never knew how long that saga was gonna last and thus did not realize they were gonna come in danger of catching up with the manga WHILE in the middle of an arc... hence why we had filler arcs interrupting the story... The other problem is how much Kubo dragged things out himself. Really, the anime drags out a lot of fights because that's just how fricken long they were in the manga. Kubo couldn't keep his story or fights all that tight.

    Really makes me wish we could mix and match... get the animation/writing team for bleach, and get them to work on one piece. Oda tends to handle story, pacing and arcs alot better than Kubo, and perriot's animation team are good at keeping up quality while still keeping their distance from catching up with the manga.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCtes View Post
    But it has been proven that slow pace works better than filler so naturally they do that.
    By who? A lot of recent One piece episodes are really dragged down by their pacing... anytime I decided to watch one, i find myself skipping through the episode only watching about 5 minutes of material because i get so board with how long everything takes to happen. I didn't do that as much with bleach (though i had much less interested in watching bleach since i had grown sick of the manga)... and when ti comes down to it, I liked some of bleach's filler arcs... the only downside was how they came in the middle of the story, rather than coming before and after arcs. I would LOVE for one piece to copy perriot; hire some decent writers, us their creative freedom to create long filler arcs (not a series of small ones), and thus give themselves more ability to make better canon material... also to use a bit more imagination when extending an episode; give us more exchanging punches and less LONG stare downs.

    Really the only thing i would say has been proven is that slow pacing isn't enough to kill something that is INSANELY popular.
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    I'd much rather have more filler arcs in One Piece myself (not sure how long). And more single weeks without episodes. Buuuuuuuuuut I'm not trying to hold my breath or anything like that- I'm just saying.

    I do agree with the "things'll be picking up in this arc" people but I don't really feel comfortable saying much more without feelings things'll be spoilery, including subtle things. I don't blame people for being upset with the anime pacing, but I haven't read the manga chapters for this arc recently enough to compare things to the manga.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gold Guy View Post
    To be honest, some of the earlier comments made me sad.

    Most of the One Piece arcs begin slow, so that you can be introduced to the characters, and new concepts. Oda is a master of always bringing together various plots towards the middle and end of an arc.
    I think the thing is, whatever pacing Oda does has the potential to be stretched out greatly by how Toei handles things, since the storyline goes into their hands once they work on the anime.

    And if you don't like the weekly pacing.....STREAM THE SHOW ON HULU, OR BUY THE DVDS. Gah.
    Not that I've got a problem with using those methods as ways to watch the series, but since the show airs a new episode weekly in Japan, I don't think that it's right that, by default, anyone should go watch the series faster than weekly just to feel that the storyline is moving at a decent pace.

    For me, the pacing of this Water 7 storyline is all right, and I know the storyline of Water 7 myself anyway, but I can't help but think from the perspective of people watching the series from where Adult Swim started, some still probably wondering "Why is this series so liked?"

    Also, I'm pretty sure most of the people who have a problem in this thread with the pacing already know of Hulu and DVDs or aren't currently interested enough in the show to get further along with the show at a faster pace then what Toonami's doing. I guess that, at least...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCtes
    But it has been proven that slow pace works better than filler so naturally they do that.
    I'd like to know about where that's been proven as well, since I don't really hear this often...

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monte View Post
    By who? A lot of recent One piece episodes are really dragged down by their pacing... anytime I decided to watch one, i find myself skipping through the episode only watching about 5 minutes of material because i get so board with how long everything takes to happen. I didn't do that as much with bleach (though i had much less interested in watching bleach since i had grown sick of the manga)... and when ti comes down to it, I liked some of bleach's filler arcs... the only downside was how they came in the middle of the story, rather than coming before and after arcs. I would LOVE for one piece to copy perriot; hire some decent writers, us their creative freedom to create long filler arcs (not a series of small ones), and thus give themselves more ability to make better canon material... also to use a bit more imagination when extending an episode; give us more exchanging punches and less LONG stare downs.

    Really the only thing i would say has been proven is that slow pacing isn't enough to kill something that is INSANELY popular.
    Filler did them worse than slow pacing with ratings. That's what decided it.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCtes View Post
    Filler did them worse than slow pacing with ratings. That's what decided it.
    [citation needed]
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobodyman View Post
    Better than that, read the manga.
    Read? Some of us prefer our brains to be spoonfed with bright colors and loud noises.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gold Guy View Post
    And if you don't like the weekly pacing.....STREAM THE SHOW ON HULU, OR BUY THE DVDS. Gah.
    At the pace they release new DVDs and episodes on streaming, you'd pretty much end with about one episode per week anyway, right? Unless you watch subs, but I refer you to my previous comment on reading.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dudley View Post
    It would be interesting to have One Piece be adapted in the same way that we adapt comic books here in America.
    Like for One Piece, they'll break the saga up between seasons or something. Maybe condense the entire East Blue Saga (beginning of the series, to the end of the Arlong story arc) within maybe 26 episodes. By focusing only on crucial elements, they can squeeze 100 chapters into something that's fast paced and entertaining!

    And man, it'll be so cool, to see the fun of the Water 7 saga, squeezed into 13-26 episodes!
    Basically what I was saying. Which leads to yet another debate related to shounen anime/manga - do we really need to have manga adapted panel-to-panel verbatim right off the page? What's the point of an adaptation if you're just copying exactly what's on the page? It's like those video games based on movies where they have cutscenes that are basically recreations of movies scenes. What's the point? Now obviously we have filler so it's not exactly the same, but of course nobody watches a show for the filler.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobodyman View Post
    Yeah, because we certainly have never done that.......
    In television? Well, the most popular comic-to-TV adaptation right now in the US is The Walking Dead and I'd say that's far from mediocre. Then there's Game of Thrones - not a comic but still, not many people calling that mediocre. Most of our best shows (Breaking Bad, Mad Men, Sons of Anarchy, Homeland, etc) are only 10-13 episodes per year. I'd bet AMC and HBO would love to get those kind of ratings year-round, but if they forced those shows to make a new episode year round, I doubt the quality would last. Of course, there's stuff like Family Guy and The Simpsons (to say nothing of endless police procedurals) that value quantity over quality. But those aren't based on anything, and episodes are stand-alone and can be great on their own. I would have thought, based on what I've heard, that One Piece was something beloved like Game of Thrones and you'd want to adapt it similarly, instead of turning it into something that's a weekly by-the-numbers show, with average per-episode quality approximating NCIS or Law & Order. That's why I'm disappointed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobodyman View Post
    You do know that Matt and Trey's production schedule is hell for them, right? There's no way they could do it year-round. Yes, they could sell out to an animation studio with multiple writers and animators, but as yourself pointed out, the magic would be lost. And even then, I'm sure it wouldn't be year-round (Talk shows, news programs, soap operas, and the like are pretty much the only things that run year-round in the States).
    That's exactly the point I was trying to make. If they did sell it off, Comedy Central could turn it into a year round cash cow and really clean up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobodyman View Post
    One Piece remains an insane cash cow in Japan, so there's no real reason for them to emphasize quality or quantity. And while cash flow from the foreign market is nice, it ultimately makes up an extremely low percentage of their profits. Like, even if One Piece was DBZ or Naruto levels of popular, the profit from the American market would still be negligible. And, hell, DBZ itself suffered from really bad pacing (thanks again, Toei) and it got along just fine here in the States. Really, I think the main reason One Piece isn't more popular in the States is poor marketing. It started off on a Saturday morning block, targeted towards grade-schoolers, with a really terrible dub that had tons of cuts and edits (even going so far as to omit an entire canon story arc) and one licensing company change and a brief run on Toonami later it still hasn't really found its footing. That, and I think a lot of people are turned off by the art style.
    That's what I said - from a profitability standpoint, it's working so why fix it. Now I'm no expert on Japanese viewing habits, but I have to believe that there's probably some people who were late to the party that can't even imagine jumping in at this point. Especially since they don't play reruns. And while it may have many other obstacles to overcome before being widely accepted in the US, the daunting length sure isn't helping. And part of that is related to the multiple false starts - if they'd had a decent dub from the beginning, on a decent network, we'd be much closer to being caught up today.

    At the end of the day, if you did short seasons with breaks you'd have not only a better show but a show more people could enjoy. AND you'd have more people that would seek out the manga, knowing it's not the exact same scene-by-scene story. Of course if enough Japanese viewers are happy enough with it that they're watching every week, you can't blame the studio for doing it their way. That's why I'm disappointed with the Japanese viewers, for settling for something mediocre from something they apparently love.

  12. #92
    TheCtes is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monte View Post

    [citation needed]
    Oh come on. You're asking me to dig up seriously old rating archives and compare while we alao take general ratings drop all over TV into consideration?

    They used to do filler. Then they started doing slow pacing. And they've done that since. Isn't it obvious what worked out better for them?

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by WickedChild View Post
    In television? Well, the most popular comic-to-TV adaptation right now in the US is The Walking Dead and I'd say that's far from mediocre. Then there's Game of Thrones - not a comic but still, not many people calling that mediocre. Most of our best shows (Breaking Bad, Mad Men, Sons of Anarchy, Homeland, etc) are only 10-13 episodes per year. I'd bet AMC and HBO would love to get those kind of ratings year-round, but if they forced those shows to make a new episode year round, I doubt the quality would last. Of course, there's stuff like Family Guy and The Simpsons (to say nothing of endless police procedurals) that value quantity over quality. But those aren't based on anything, and episodes are stand-alone and can be great on their own. I would have thought, based on what I've heard, that One Piece was something beloved like Game of Thrones and you'd want to adapt it similarly, instead of turning it into something that's a weekly by-the-numbers show, with average per-episode quality approximating NCIS or Law & Order. That's why I'm disappointed.
    Ok, first of all, you really need to stop comparing One Piece (and all shonen anime/manga, really) to the likes of Game of Thrones and Breaking Bad. One Piece isn't some critically-acclaimed prime time drama based on a best-selling novel; it's a pulp series. It's a really good pulp series, but still a pulp series. And I know you detest the quantity-over-quality sentiment (as do I, for the most part), but that's exactly the kind of industry One Piece comes from. It's published in Weekly Shonen Jump, a magazine that is also released on a weekly basis, and the majority of whose comics don't last more than a year or two.

    Oh, and as for the mediocrity that we settle for that I alluded to earlier; soap operas, Hanna-Barbara cartoons, reality shows, TMZ, tons of other stuff that's cheap and easy to make and emphasizes quantity over artistic integrity.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCtes View Post
    They used to do filler. Then they started doing slow pacing. And they've done that since. Isn't it obvious what worked out better for them?
    First off, Toei has NEVER been heavy on filler material. I mean you look at DBZ and you will see they spent a great amount of time just dragging out the episodes with the fighters powering up. Unlike Studio Perriot, Toei has always kept filler to a minimum and keeps it things short. Really, with how short their filler seasons were, i would doubt the ratings would show a signifcant impact either way; they were usually gone before you could get board of them. Furthermore, Toei DOES still make filler... when it comes down to it, filler takes more effort to make since it requires actual writing and creativity on toei's part; they have to come up with their own characters, storys, plots and scripts; honestly these guys practically use the manga as a storyboard... dragging things out is A LOT simpler

    Futhermore, Filler is still standard practice with other long running series. Naruto, Bleach, Fairy Tail, Toriko, Detective Conan and so forth all still make use of filler. Don't see why they would all continue a practice that supposedly lowers their ratings.


    Oh come on. You're asking me to dig up seriously old rating archives and compare while we alao take general ratings drop all over TV into consideration?
    It does help to have evidence to back up your claims to show you are speaking fact, rather than assumption

    Though with some hunting I have found what is supposedly a record of Japanese ratings on another forum
    I haven't gone over everything, but look at the airdates for the end of Skypeia, through the begining of water 7 the ratings seemed to be unaffected by the filler that went on inbetween. Also, while one piece is still INSANELY popular, it seems like it actually did used to score even higher ratings in the early 2000's... back when the pacing was better; i think right around Alabasta might have been when One piece ratings was at it's height. In fact, it seems that, despite water 7 being one of the best one piece arcs, it was later in that arc that One piece started to slip in the ratings, and it took a while to get back to where they were... and i think water 7 and the next arc is where pacing starts to slip up. And it seems like, as of late 2012, the ratings might be a slipping a bit again

    Another thing I checked was that some of bleach's filler arcs, did a little better than their canon arcs; only a little better mind you, but its consistent enough to say there was a difference... and that series was really dragging in the ratings by the time it was canceled; series was pretty much done when Aizen was.

    Now in the reverse... We have Naruto... THAT is a case where we saw damage caused by filler. Ratings held for a while, but eventually it became too much. Granted Naruto was still doing better than bleach, but their was a noticable drop in the ratings. Fillers during shippuden however, fared better as there didn't seem to be a signficant change. Though shippuden's ratings were never as good as what Naruto used to have before the timeskip.

    All in all... fillers do not seem to in and of themselves hurt ratings; its possible they can, but they often have no effect (or in rare cases actually help the ratings). A lot of it depends on the quality of the filler's and how long they last. The canon material is also more than capable of suffering all on its own
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    The funny thing about One Piece, is that a lot of its earlier seasons took many liberties with the manga plot to add extra details or rearrange scenes.

    And while the animation from those episodes is fairly subpar, they do have a good deal of creativity to them script wise.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobodyman View Post
    Ok, first of all, you really need to stop comparing One Piece (and all shonen anime/manga, really) to the likes of Game of Thrones and Breaking Bad. One Piece isn't some critically-acclaimed prime time drama based on a best-selling novel; it's a pulp series. It's a really good pulp series, but still a pulp series. And I know you detest the quantity-over-quality sentiment (as do I, for the most part), but that's exactly the kind of industry One Piece comes from. It's published in Weekly Shonen Jump, a magazine that is also released on a weekly basis, and the majority of whose comics don't last more than a year or two.

    Oh, and as for the mediocrity that we settle for that I alluded to earlier; soap operas, Hanna-Barbara cartoons, reality shows, TMZ, tons of other stuff that's cheap and easy to make and emphasizes quantity over artistic integrity.
    I'm not really trying to compare the shows themselves, it's more like I'm trying to compare the model with which our popular and acclaimed shows are made compared to something popular in Japan like One Piece. Now certainly, as you said there's plenty of popular low-brow stuff in America, but that stuff is cheap and was always intended to be cheap. No one would expect anything more from a soap opera or reality show. Something like Game of Thrones was never intended to be cheap. It was a popular and acclaimed series, and the adaptation sought to live up to it. Walking Dead is an even better example. While Game of Thrones is very much a grown-up's fantasy novel series, Walking Dead was a serialized black-and-white comic, very much in the same pulpy class (though for an older audience) as One Piece. And I would argue that that show actually elevates the source material. We don't even need to stay with TV, Nolan's Dark Knight trilogy of movies are better than many movies based on classic novels. Batman is about as pulpy as One Piece, and for roughly the same audience, but its legacy is such that it was able to produce something as grand and high-reaching as the Nolan trilogy.

    Now, if what I've heard is true, that the One Piece manga is both highly acclaimed and extremely popular, and I was a fan of it, I would want any adaptation to at least try to live up to its legacy, if not elevate it, instead of just going for the easy panel-to-panel, by-the-numbers, stretch-out model that only serves to guarantee consistent profits. That's NOT to say profit should be disregarded or they should only do it for the "art" or some other hippie nonsense, but I would wish that they would have enough faith in the Japanese audience to give them something extraordinary and not have to worry that it would eat into profits (and maybe, in the long term, actually have the possibility to yield greater profit).

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monte View Post
    Another thing I checked was that some of bleach's filler arcs, did a little better than their canon arcs; only a little better mind you, but its consistent enough to say there was a difference... and that series was really dragging in the ratings by the time it was canceled; series was pretty much done when Aizen was.
    This is true. From what I recall, seeing the ratings information we have for the Bleach anime post-Aizen, they were abysmally low. In fact, Bleach might very likely be getting better ratings on Toonami than it was getting in Japan at this same point.
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